Convince a new LFS to use copper in some tanks?

[austinsdad]

An LFS in my area opened less than a year ago. He's a nice, ambitious young guy who I've kinda taken a liking too. I do remember he did have a bacterial outbreak at one point in the past. Anyway, his shop burned and now is about to open again after re-building. He's got only about 12 display tanks, with six of'm plummed together. He's got 4 tanks with coral and shrimp, crabs, and the like. His main business is tanks, installs, and regular maintenance.

He says he's trying to stay away from copper. I'm trying to convince him to run some in the six fish only tanks. Anyone wanna help me come up with something to convince him? I just think that he'd be a lot better off with receiving fish after transport, when they've likely been stressed and could cause an outbreak thru all his fish only tanks.

Does this make sense, or should I leave it alone? He's got the right idea about trying to provide high quality fish, but I think he could be setting himself up for huge losses?

Any input or thoughts that I might pass along to him? Don't all LFS'ers use copper in their fish tanks?

 

[grimlock3000]

In a LFS environment, I think copper should be used away from any tank that could contain inverts or corals. It is much too easy to use copper on a small number of tanks, and accidentallly transfer some to another tank (or tanks). With 6 tanks plumbed together, if any copper got in that system it would affect 6 tanks in one shot.

If anything, a copper dip/QT area setup away from the display tanks could work out well. One LFS by me does this, all new marine fish go in seperate QT for at least a week. The QT tanks are in an different room of of the LFS and nothing used for the QT tanks (water supply, buckets, nets, filters...) gets used on the display tanks. If they have to treat a fish, they can do it without worrying about the fish or inverts in the display areas.

 

[quarryshark]

IMO I would not use copper at all. The levels needed to really have any effect on parasites is way to high for long term housing. Fish can only take copper for short periods of time, long term treatment can do permanent damage or kill them.
A couple of LFS around here use a low level of copper in their system and they still get parasites. Also you can see after a fish has been there for a few months, they start to break down.
I believe a better (maybe not cheaper) way is to keep a couple of tank as hospital tanks separate from the rest of the system. If a fish comes in sick, place them in the hospital tank for treatment. Dips for new arrivals may also help.
Tough call, if your in the business.

 

[austinsdad]

Thanks Q-Shark. That was one of my suggestions to him also - to use a tank or two as hospital tanks. I'd imagine he'll need two since all fish don't get along. I think I'll hammer on that option w/him.

And Grimlock makes a lot of sense too - in that copper could very easily be accidently transferred to other tanks.

 

[quarryshark]

Ya one of the places I mentioned has a beautiful Asfur Angel. I would love to buy her, but My Maculosus and her would fight like crazy.
She has been there for a few month and while I was in there the other day, I took a look at her. You could see she was looking sick, fins getting frayed, lateral line setting in. I just know its from the copper.
Breaks my heart. Such a friendly fish too.

 

[Berzer]

I've worked in two different LFS's and both used copper (cupramine) in their fish only systems. One used a very low dosage, the other went very high, .6 in one system and .8 in the other which does bother me abit but i'm not in the position to make that call in my store. They do have a quarantine system setup but it really reeks bad. It's a sure fire trip to the grave for any fish that enters that system. We do have a fairly high turnaround rate on fish so most don't stay more than a week or two in the systems before they go home. The acrylic systems they keep the reef stuff in really scare me. Never have i seen so much copepods in the filter floss in my life. Course, you'd think they'd at least cure the rock before they place any in the system

 

[Terry B]

I can tell you what I would like to see all LFS do, but it would take the cooperation of their customers to work. Rather than using copper all the fish could be kept in hyposaline conditions. This will not cause them harm and it will help improve survival rates greatly. Fish that have just been transported and handled are suffering from osmotic disturbance due to stress. Hyposaline conditions help alleviate stress and the fish recover more quickly. The problem is that the customers would need to take the fish home and quarantine them. Then they could slowly bring the salinity up before moving them to their display tank. This would actually help reduce losses at the LFS and at home. I just think most people are too lazy to do it (or they don't really care about the fish).

You can read more about this in my library.
http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/reducing_losses_associated_with_transport.html

Cheers,
Terry B

Cheers

 

[Hara]

I just think most people are too lazy to do it (or they don't really care about the fish).

Your post has alot of great information and thanks for the link. I do ask that you please try to be a little less offensive to those that don't follow your suggestions.

 

[KMyers18]

I dont think anyone would find that comment offensive! I find it to be very true! That even goes for me i would not want to mess with some thing like that. I dont have the time or the room for a whole QT setup. I figure if i pay as much as i do for a fish he should be ready to drop in the tank! Hara you seem to be very knowledgable about this hobby and your post and replys are allways informative. But your allways the first one to jump on some one for what they post or reply with. You seem to think most everyones comments are some how offensive. And to me that more rude and offensive than anything i have ever read on this forum. Forums are for people to post there opinion. And your the only person on here that ever says something is offinsive. Every thing is not offinsive

 

[Berzer]

Working in the business for a few years now, i can totally see both ends of what terry is saying. There are alot of customers that i get that just don't have room for a QT. There are also the customers that come in, plan on throwing money around without even trying to learn anything, and then get mad at ME when a fish dies after they get it home. I will say there are just as many smart hobbyists as there are idiots out there that think you just slap a fish in a tank and pop in water and go. I get questions like , "whats dechlorinator?" , "nobody told me i had to...(fill in menial task)". I enjoy the customers i have that take it as a hobby and have time and money to spend on it and do it right. Optimally, i would like to have all my customers have QT's , just for safe measure, but some responsibility does go to the store for providing healthy fish. I always make sure i look at every fish i sell and i check with the customer and make sure they are happy with what they see. I never sell a fish that looks unhealthy or that has not been in my store for at least 3 days after arrival. That at least gives them some time to show signs of Ich or other problems before going out to the customers. We do keep a Hyposaline quarantine in the back for fish that are new that show problems. It's just very hard to eliminate any chance of a fish to bring disease into the home of a customer without them having a QT or without the fish being in the store for a few weeks. I thank god for the use of sites like these where people can come and ask questions and get a variety of answers and can form some logical answer to their problems.

 

[rubysoho]

After reading this post, I went and asked my LFS if they dipped/used copper to treat their fish and they basically said they were selective in the fish they treated because some fish that came in couldn't tolerate a copper treatment, etc...

 

[reefrunner69]

I dont think anyone would find that comment offensive!

I thought it was a bit "over the top".

I find it to be very true!

You can speak the truth without being rude, even just a little bit. I can easily see were someone would be put off by that statement.

But your allways the first one to jump on some one for what they post or reply with.

I'll take that as a compliment to our hard working and underpaid staff. As a moderator it is her job to be one of the first ones to point out when someone is being rude or offensive.

Now, try to keep the thread on topic, or it will be locked.

 

[KMyers18]

IMO every fish store should run copper just to be safe. They can just have there corals and inverts in seperate tanks. Most popular fish stores have a pretty good turn over on fish so there not just bathing in copper for months on end!!