Flame Angel & Spots

[PrettyFishies]

My flame angel that i acclimated on Tuesday has developed 2 white spots on his tail fin and what looks lok one large one on his rear underside fin.

I'm not sure if it's ich....and I'd like to avoid placing him in a QT if possible. I've used garlic to treat a lypho problem with my yellow tang, can the same be used here?

Any ideas?

 

[d9hp]

I know this is not the complete answer, but dont cleaner shrimp pick parasites off of fish?

 

[steve-s]

I know this is not the complete answer, but dont cleaner shrimp pick parasites off of fish?

Cleaner shrimp will pick the parasite off the fish but it will not cure the problem. C irritans will remain present in the tank as long as there is a host fish to provide nourishment for them to multiply.

In rare cases fish can overcome problems on their own if the immune system is strong enough. Adding garlic to the food will help somewhat as the active ingredient allicin will help repel the free swimming theronts. It is still no cure.

The best possible solution is to QT all the fish in the display tank and perform either hyposalinity or treat with copper.

This is one of the main reasons to QT all new purchases prior to allowing them in the main display. You only need treat one fish not all. You can try the "touted" reef safe meds but your best solution will still be a QT.

Cheers
Steve

 

[d9hp]

Hyposaliity, is it high enough to keep fish alive long enough? how do you do it, use a drip bucket and drip in RO water, overcoming evaporation and eventually lowering your salinity to such a low point?

 

[HoopsGuru]

I'm not sure if it's ich....and I'd like to avoid placing him in a QT if possible.

I'm not quite sure why QTing fish is so undesirable. It avoids the very problem you are experiencing now potentially, and places no other livestock in jeapardy at the same time.

It only require an extra 15-20g tank, a heater, and a HOB filter. A few weeks before you make your purchase, you place some filter floss or other media in your main tank's sump, filter, whatever. You then just set the QT up a few days before purchase and put the seeded media into the HOB and you can often skip having ammonia and nitrite problems. You can then treat as mentioned above, although I favor no treatment unless there is an actual problem. After the 4 weeks of success, you can break the tank back down and store it.

In addition to being a great place to observe fish for disease, it is also a fantastic place to get a fish comfortable to tank life without the stress of other fish harassing it. I have found they start eating much quicker as opposed to the CB that you see hiding.

As much as it is your responsibility to provide a good, healthy home to your livestock, it is more of a resposibility that they enter that home in great shape. Hopefully, this experience is not ich or another disease and can just be a learning experience.

 

[steve-s]

Hyposaliity, is it high enough to keep fish alive long enough? how do you do it, use a drip bucket and drip in RO water, overcoming evaporation and eventually lowering your salinity to such a low point?

Follow the link >>HERE<<. It will give you detailed instructions on how perform hyposalinity properly.

The salinity of the QT is lowered over a few days to 1.09 SG or 14ppt salinity. The fish will live quite well at that salinity and has the added benifit of being less stressful than copper treatments tend to be. The only thing to be cautious of is alk/PH drops when lowering the SG. They should be monitored regularly.

Cheers
Steve

 

[d9hp]

Well, wouldnt the use of marinebuff do it ok?

 

[steve-s]

Well, wouldnt the use of marinebuff do it ok?

To maintain the alk and PH, yes. You should still monitor the levels with proper tests kits to ensure accuracy.

Cheers
Steve

 

[d9hp]

I am learning something new everyday. I am loving this hobby...

 

[PrettyFishies]

I chose the hyposalinity method and have had the flame in the QT for a week. I am noticing the spots on his tail are growing and there is now one on his face. I have been monitoring the water daily and the salinity is 1.009/1.010 ... and has been for 7 days.... Any ideas?

 

[steve-s]

I have been monitoring the water daily and the salinity is 1.009/1.010 ... and has been for 7 days.... Any ideas?

The SG must be maintained properly at 1.09 to ensure the parasite dies. Temperature has a habit of skewing the results if using a swing arm hydrometer.

If possible, try and borrow a refractometer from a friend or possibley the LFS and calibrate the hydrometer using the "borrowed" refractometer.

Salinity should measure 14ppt using a refractometer. Be patient and give it time. Once the salinity is properly maintained you will see results.

Cheers
Steve

 

[PrettyFishies]

Temp = constant 75 degrees .... And I'm using a SeaTest hydrometer...

 

[steve-s]

As I said, you should get the hydrometer double checked for accuracy. I just did a check with the SeaTest and the Deepsix on three on my tanks and the SeaTest was out each time by 0.5-1 ppt. That can make all the difference on the effectiveness of hyposalinity. Make sure you are also monitoring the PH regularly.

Keep in mind it's only been 7 days and it will take time. The various stages of the parasite will determine the "speed" in which you start seeing results.

Cheers
Steve

 

[PrettyFishies]

Now it's been 14 days... and still no visible improvement. The spots have gotten larger although, I don't see any spread. The flame is not showing signs of distress and is still eating well. But the darn parasites won't go away. I don't want to treat with cupramine (for a # of reasons) But, how long does it take to see real progress?

I have checked to make sure the SG stays at or below 14ppt and the PH is fine.

 

[steve-s]

I am still wondering if the hydrometer is still not giving you a correct reading. Confirming with a refractometer will be the only surest way. If possible take a sample to the LFS to test. You should phone first to see if they even have one.

Hyposalinity should have had some affect by now and the fact the infestation is not getting worse really leads me to believe the salinity is still too high. If salinity is over 14ppt, it will have no effect on C. irritans.

Cheers
Steve

 

[reefrunner69]

The spots have gotten larger although, I don't see any spread.

This leads me to wonder whether it is C. irritans at all. I'm thinking Lympho after only having read the second page.

 

[steve-s]

The spots have gotten larger although, I don't see any spread.

This leads me to wonder whether it is C. irritans at all. I'm thinking Lympho after only having read the second page.

Could easily be. If that's the case hypo will have no effect. In fact there is no cure other than improved living conditions and diet. Does it have a rough looking texture or fluffy?

What is the primary diet you've been feeding and how are the parameters in the QT itself?

Cheers
Steve

 

[PrettyFishies]

Here's an Update for those of you that have been watching....

After 2 weeks of hyposalinity with negative results, I decided to treat with copper. I purchased Sea Cure and a Fastest copper test kit. I tested the water FIRST because I had treated the tank b4 with Cupramine for a clown, but I had changed the water after that...but just to be sure....

No copper at all. So I followed the directions, except I used one less drop than instructed... In ONE DAY I noticed he had 2 less spots. It has only been two days (I did this Wednesday night) And all the parasites are gone!

So, I'm going to watch over the levels and maintain the .15mg/L for 2 weeks and bring the salinity back up....and I anticipate full recovery.

My opinion on the matter is with this experience, I'm not a fan of hyposalinity. It did nothing execpt maybe preventing the spread of the parasites.

To answer your Ques. Steve - He gets a diet of vegatable/algae based flakes, enriched brine, mysis, morsels and sponge-based angel food.

The QT tank Parameters:

PH - 8.2-8.3
trite - 0
trate - 10
Amm -none
Copper .10mg/L < X < .15 mg/L
Temp - 75
SG - 1.008/1.009 (12 ppt)

 

[steve-s]

Interesting, I am very glad you have been able to help the flame.

In the last couple of posts however, I do not beleive you where treating C irritans as RR pointed out but something else. For properly administered hyposalinity to fail, where copper prevailed it could not have been ich.

The spots have gotten larger although, I don't see any spread.

That is not the typical behavour of ich but rather a different parasite nor could it have been a fungus or lympho as copper would have no effect on the latter two. I hope you do not discount the possitive affects that hyposalinity can have when used properly. It is still a very effective treatment.

I wish continued good health for you. 8)

Cheers
Steve

 

[PrettyFishies]

So now that we believe it is Lympho or some type of parasite other than ich... Is it likely to be contagious? Because now that it's cured, I'm raising the salinity and planning on acclimating to the main tank by the weeks end...