Flukes ?

[Walpurgis]

Hello, i got a couple of black and white clowns from my LFS, never had a problem with anything that i have bought from him before, but about a week later, started to see little white dots on one of the fish, thought it was ick, and decided to get some cleaner shrimp, just in case. (These are the only fish that we have in the tank right now, though we still have a lot of corals). Well, the shrimp didn't touch the clowns and the clowns really seem fine, eating and swimming all around the tank. The second clown got one spot on him right by his mouth.

Then about a week ago, the dots were getting bigger, a lot bigger, like cotton balls on the fins and around the mouth of the fish, so i called the LFS and asked him about it. He said that it was flukes and that he had some medicine that would not only take care of it but also not hurt any of my corals, so i go by and decide to check out the other clowns that he had in the same tank as the ones i bought, and sure enough they had them too, so i asked him to verify that was flukes, he said yes and i bought the med's. (it was PrazilPro)

So this stuff says that it takes 5-7 days to work and it has been 7 days and my poor fish is still covered with these spots, though it looks like they aren't spreading anymore.

Does anyone know what else i can do for the guy? My LFS guy said that it won't kill him, just that it looks awful, but i hate that he is covered. I went ahead and re-treated the tank again (the directions said that you could)

the perimeters are:
PH: morning 8.0
Sal: 1.024
am:0
Nitrate: 12.5ppm
KH: 9
Cal: 400

thanks!!

PS: if you need/want a picture i can get one when the lights come on a little later. TIA

 

[steve-s]

PS: if you need/want a picture i can get one when the lights come on a little later. TIA

That would actually be great if you can get a clear pic. I don't think you have the right diagnosis here. A Monogenetic trematode would usually cause more damage that simple white cottony tufts. What is the active ingredient in the Prazilpro, the only thing I could find on it linked it oddly enough to antipsychotic medications (ie..Thorazine)?

By the sounds of it they have a simple bacterial infection that is starting to progress. More commonly this will be from high levels of DOC in the water. Your numbers may look good but if this started at the LFS, it could easily be fed by the stress of transfer and nutrient in your system.

Also be on the look out for red swollen area's as well as a wisp of cloud like slime surrounding the fish's boby. Almost like sheets of skin falling free.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Walpurgis]

Steve it doesn't say what is the active ingredient, just says: oxybispropanol (as an inert solubilb izing agent), <5% praziquantel by weight. a web address on it say: www.hikariusa.com

Here are two pictures of the clowns.

 

[Walpurgis]

I do not see any red spots either. TIA

 

[Walpurgis]

sorry about the double picture (my first time attaching a picture ) how do i take one off?

 

[steve-s]

Praziquantel is the active ingredient which is primarily intended for Cestode infestations but it should easily work on trematodes as well, if not better. I couldn't find it previosly as you spelled it incorrectly, PrazilPro as apposed to PraziPro. No worries though.

The clown on the left is definately not looking good. I wish you could get a closer (clearer) pic. It looks much like <<Lymphocystis>> which there is no cure for other than improved living conditions and increased nutritional feedings. (please read the linked article)

Is it looking like a squat wart in appearance or like someone dragged a cotton ball over some whiskers?

FWIW, mated clown pairs will often get abbrasions around their mouths. It comes with mating behavior while they are preparing a surface of rock or similar in preparation for laying eggs. I find it more common with the male. Usually in a tank low in DOC/nutrient it quickly heals on it's own provided their immune systems are well fed.

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

sorry about the double picture (my first time attaching a picture ) how do i take one off?

No worries it can stay if you wish, it won't bother anyone. If you do wish to remove it, look for your name in the post list and click on it (not your profile link). You should be taken to a screen that gives the details of your username. On the bottom right there is a link "user attachment control panel". From there it will take you to all your unploaded posts and one or all can be deleted as needed.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Walpurgis]

Praziquantel is the active ingredient which is primarily intended for Cestode infestations but it should easily work on trematodes as well, if not better. I couldn't find it previosly as you spelled it incorrectly, PrazilPro as apposed to PraziPro. No worries though.

The clown on the left is definately not looking good. I wish you could get a closer (clearer) pic. It looks much like <<Lymphocystis>> which there is no cure for other than improved living conditions and increased nutritional feedings. (please read the linked article)

Is it looking like a squat wart in appearance or like someone dragged a cotton ball over some whiskers?

FWIW, mated clown pairs will often get abbrasions around their mouths. It comes with mating behavior while they are preparing a surface of rock or similar in preparation for laying eggs. I find it more common with the male. Usually in a tank low in DOC/nutrient it quickly heals on it's own provided their immune systems are well fed.

Cheers
Steve

Steve, here is a close up of the other picture, it does look like he has a cotton ball in his mouth. He is eating just fine, but i have notice him nipping at the other clown every once in a while. They aren'tshy or seem stressed (at least not visbuly other than the spots). One of the things on the directions had us turn off our protein skimmer for the last week, should i get it back on and do a water change? If so should i do a large water change (i did one last weekend of about 10gals, we try to do this every week)?

Thank you so much for your help, I love this forum, i have learned so much from all of y'all.

 

[Walpurgis]

sorry, another question...how do you test your DOC? Is there a test? or am i already testing for it and just don't know that it is a DOC?

Thanks again,
Mary

 

[steve-s]

here is a close up of the other picture, it does look like he has a cotton ball in his mouth. He is eating just fine, but i have notice him nipping at the other clown every once in a while.

Looks like you might actually have a true fungal infection there which is quite rare. I can't really make it out to be sure but a bacterial infection will typically be accompanied by red ulcerated area's.

You have two choices here, do a few good sized water changes (about 20% every 2 days) with well aged/aerated SW over the next two weeks to help improve nutrient levels. You will also need to be sure the foods are fortified with a good liq. marine vitamin. Be sure the foods fed are a good mix of both meat and veggies, not just meat. Beta glucan can be an excellent aid in these cases.

Second option would be to get a QT going and treat with an antibiotic. I would attempt the above and observe the fish for the next few weeks first. As I said true fungal infections are quite rare and often misdiagnosed when they are actually bacterial in nature. If you do treat, use Maracyn II at double the dose daily for 7 full days. If that's unavailable, be sure it is an antibiotic specifically intended for gram negative bacteria.

One of the things on the directions had us turn off our protein skimmer for the last week, should i get it back on and do a water change? If so should i do a large water change (i did one last weekend of about 10gals, we try to do this every week)?

Yes, get the skimmer going and as indicated above, several water changes over the next two weeks. I would also add some carbon or better still a Biomarine Polyfilter if available. It will help remove nitrogens as well as the med.

sorry, another question...how do you test your DOC? Is there a test? or am i already testing for it and just don't know that it is a DOC?

You can, it's called an ORP meter. I personally wouldn't suggest it though, it can be rather pricey. It is best used in conjuction with O3. Usually it's not needed as long as the hobbyest is mindful of stock levels, feeding amounts/frequencies and general maintenance.

DOC is where the nitrogen cycle begins before Nitrosomona bacteria convert it to ammonia and in turn down the chain. With a properly funtioning biofilter, you can have a heavy DOC/nutrient load and still have excellent readings on the three nitrogens. With a typically healthy well fed fish, they can easily fend off the many maladies encountered in a closed system. It's typically once stressed or their immune systems have been compromised somehow they become easily affected.

On a 150 gal + sump, 10 gal weekly water changes won't make a dent. You should really be looking at least 25 gal weekly changes, especially if this is a newer setup.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Walpurgis]

Thank you so much Steve, i really appreciate all of your help. we will do the water changes, and get some vitamins for them. I have been adding garlic to their food, i feed them Spectrum Thera A by New Life and some frozen brime shrimp as well as flakes, and krill. We also feed the tank cyclop-eeze. Is this good or do i need to get some other kinds too.

As far as the nitrogens goes, in the beginning of May we lost all our fish (still don't know why, for sure, that was when i found this forum), so we decided to go ahead and replace the crush coral substrate with sand. We put in about a 5 and half inch sand bed. We waited over 4 weeks before buying the clowns, just to be on the safe side, and never had a cycle, or at least one we could see. Our tank has been up since Jan. of 2002, so we thought that the live rock was just taking care of the bio. The reason we switched to the sand bed is that we have been fighting a nitrate problem the whole time. It is the lowest it has ever been at 12.5ppm, so we thought the sand bed was working.

Now the other clown fish at the LFS has the same things on them, so is there something wrong in our tank, or just that they had this problem when we bought them and now we need to fix it? Is the fact that they haven't gotten better, and that the fugus is getting better mean that i have a nitrogen problem? I guess what i am asking is if you think i have a problem in my tank? all my corals, shirmps, hermits, and crabs seem pretty happy, would they be affected by a nitrogen problem?

As far as the regular water changes goes, we were doing so many (like 30 to 40 gals weekly), cause of the nitrate problem (before the fish died) that when we changed out the substrate, we thought it would be better to do smaller ones, so that we could keep an eye on the different levels, and see if it went through a cycle. ...... guess we were wrong on that too. :|

sorry for all the questions, and thanks for all your help!!

Mary

 

[steve-s]

Thank you so much Steve, i really appreciate all of your help. we will do the water changes, and get some vitamins for them. I have been adding garlic to their food, i feed them Spectrum Thera A by New Life and some frozen brime shrimp as well as flakes, and krill. We also feed the tank cyclop-eeze. Is this good or do i need to get some other kinds too.

Personally I have never had much faith in parasitic food types but New lifes seems to be a reputable brand. Do not rely on dried foods too often though. Feeding brine can be somewhat hit and miss unless a quality manufacturer. Some are very low in nutritional value due to how they are reared and harvested. If you wish to feed brine I highly suggest hatching your own. If not, switch to a more consistant food source like mysis or better still, your own <<blender mush>>. You will be able to incorporate all the dietary needs into one feeding. No matter the fish's "wild" diet, all need a source of protein and veggie matter, your addition of the vitamins will be an added bonus to keeping a high immune system as well as vibrantly colored fish.

As far as the nitrogens goes, in the beginning of May we lost all our fish (still don't know why, for sure, that was when i found this forum), so we decided to go ahead and replace the crush coral substrate with sand. We put in about a 5 and half inch sand bed. We waited over 4 weeks before buying the clowns, just to be on the safe side, and never had a cycle, or at least one we could see. Our tank has been up since Jan. of 2002, so we thought that the live rock was just taking care of the bio. The reason we switched to the sand bed is that we have been fighting a nitrate problem the whole time. It is the lowest it has ever been at 12.5ppm, so we thought the sand bed was working.

Depending on how long the tank was without waste producers (ie..fish), the biofilter may be significantly reduced. LR alone nor simple invertebrate life will sustain the biofilter to any great degree. The bacteria needs to be fed by way of ammonia. That can only be done by the breakdown of foods. If you fed the inverts on a regular basis, the biofilter will still be there, just not as strong as when first cycled or containing a number of fish. You need to keep in mind that the bacteria assocciated with biofiltration only grow to meet the demand (waste) being produced by a system. As each new waste load is added, the biofilter will need time to catch up and multiply the necessary bacteria down the line.

Now the other clown fish at the LFS has the same things on them, so is there something wrong in our tank, or just that they had this problem when we bought them and now we need to fix it? Is the fact that they haven't gotten better, and that the fugus is getting better mean that i have a nitrogen problem? I guess what i am asking is if you think i have a problem in my tank? all my corals, shirmps, hermits, and crabs seem pretty happy, would they be affected by a nitrogen problem?

These fish where most likely unhealthy when you bought them. For this onset to happen so quickly, I doubt very much your system was the cause but it can definately be a continuation of it's presence. The nitrogen reading unto themselves will not necessarily mean you have done anything wrong. 12.5 ppm nitrate is not a big concern albeit lower is better. A condition already present would have been fed by any nutrient in your system coupled by the stress of transport reducing the immune response. Had these fish been much healthier when purchased, you most likely would never have had this problem.

This is the main reason why fish should always be introduced to a proper <<quarantine>> tank before entering the main system. Had you done so I would have suggested the antibiotic right off since they where in the appropriate environment to do so. To do so now would mean capturing, transfer and acclimation to a new setting. This can make the problem worse which is why the water change/feeding approach first. Failing that, then the QT process. I hope you are thinking of getting one if not already set up.

Cheers
Steve

 

[pacheco]

if it flukes my angle just over it. i treated my tank twice with dyacide. took the angle into the lfs and they keep it and did fresh water baths for a week seems to have taken care of problem. if lfs wont do this put fish in qt and just do a couple of fresh water baths a day for 10mins at a time you can see the flukes drop off. try this for about a week.

 

[StripesTheEel]

i have had success with medication called triple sulfa.. used in conjuction with flakey skin, and cotton-like appearances around the mouth and dorsal fins. Im not sure if there is a triple sulfa in the states though..