grade A picassos need your help please!!!!

[picasso]

Hello to all,
I am fairly new to this awsome hobby, I did the common mistake of not having my tanks cycle. My community tank is now 3 months old and stable.
About 3 - 4 weeks ago I purchased 2 grade a picasso's and a bubble rose tip anemone from my LFS (mated pair hosting in anemone). I monitored them for several weeks before making the GRAND purchase for all 3. The picassos were very healthy at the time of purchase. I brought them home in a 3 gallon bucket as the anemone was attached to a live rock. The trip from the LFS to their new home was no longer that 30 min. I did a drip acclamation as I do with all my fish and corals. All parameters to the water were stable. After 2 hour acclamtion I put the picasso's in the 72 gallon bow front community tank with the anemone. Sharing the community tank with the new comers were
2 black orange face clownfish
1 false percula clownfish
1 sail fin
1 yellow belly blue hippo
1 lawnmor blenny
2 cardinal fish
1 coral elegance
1 sol wrass
1 emarald crab
1 hermit crab
3 coco worms
5 bumble bee snails
5 turbo snails
100 pounds of live rock
60 pounds of live sand
macor alge in sump
Imidielty the picasso's chased the false percula and black paired clowns.
days later the false percula was not active anymore and was isolated at the bottom of the tank. I placed him in the QT and died after 3 days. the following day the male black clown was floating next to the overflow skimmer box. He was still alive but colorless and had a long string of poop. As I got the QT preped he passed away. At the time the female was very healthy and started to react the same as the male black clown. I placed her in the quaratine tanks with Melafix and stress coat. she passed away the following morning. Now I only have my 2 picassos.
Well 4 days ago I noticed the female (larger picasso) was breathing hard and showed signs of gray purplish spots on the white sections of her body. On the forehead I noticed what seems to be missing scales. Her lips are rather larger than usual. Colors still seem vivid but stoped eating 2 days ago. My diagnossis was she had a scuffle with the sail fin as he was missing a small section of its fin on top. at feeding time the picasso seems to go after the food but retrats when she sees the other fish come by. I seen her try to get a small food particles but only to spit them out. As of 2 days ago the hippo and yellow tang develop ich. all the coral as now been moved to my empty aggrasive tank and the community tanks is now being treated with cupramine. I noticed that the large female clown is still not eating. I went ahead and removed both clown fish yesterday and did a freshwater dip with formail for 5 min. then placed them in fishless aggressive tank. She is still breathing hard and now the male picasso seems to be breathing a little harder than usaul. I attached a picture take 3 days ago. I come to you for your knowledge and pled for help. We love this fish dearly and would hate to lose them. please help
regards
picasso

 

[picasso]

Update the female picasso's color is not as vivid.

 

[mr_X]

what are your parameters? ammonia? nitrite? ph?

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Agree with Mr. X - need water parameters to really help you. That's an awful lot of fish to have added in just three months, so I'm guessing your bacterial filtration hasn't quite caught up yet. That, and you put multiple species of clownfish in the tank.

Beautiful fish... hope it heals up.

 

[picasso]

Thank you Mr. X for your reply,
On the aggressive tank where she was transferred to from the community tank
Parameters as follows
Ammonia= 0
Nitrate= .5
Nitrite= 0
Ph Balance= 7.8 and now treating
temp at 79 - 81

The community tank where she was initially before transferred to the aggressie tank (aggressive tank has no fish right not other than the picasso) Parameters as follows
Ammonia= 0
Nitrate = .10
Nitrite= 0
Ph Balance= 8.8 and now treating
Being treated with copper right now for Ick
Copper= .25
temp is 79 - 81
on this tank when the picasso's where there the temp range from 74 - 80. I then added a large warmer and stablalized it at 79 - 83.
I am still having a hard time keeping the tank at 81 when the metal halides go off. Do I really need them on?
The picasso fish is still not eating but hosting in anemone.

 

[picasso]

You are right I did put to many clowns. I really thought they where going to live in harmony as the black clowns would shake to show the picasso's that they come in peace.
I didnt understand why the cycle had to be done but I do now. I guess I simply have to wait till the colonies build up correct?

 

[picasso]

Up date:
the markings on the picasso as shown in the pictures have sort of swelled up. It seem they are popping out a bit. sort of like a bump when you hit your head. she is no longer intrested in going into the anemone. Still breathing hard and simply floating in the lower mid section of the tank between two rocks. the PH is at 8.2. I truely wish my fishy the best and a quick recovery.
thank you all!

 

[mr_X]

you need strong lighting for the anemone, and any photosynthetic corals.

 

[austinsdad]

In a 72g tank, I'm thinking you'll continue to have agression and illness problems.

I definitely agree, that you've put a LOT of stuff in that tank for only 3 months.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Good to see ammonia levels at zero. I misread your original post and didn't realize you were treating with copper. Keep an eye on the ammonia levels, as copper tends to not be very friendly to bacterial filtration. Other than that, don't know what to tell you.

If I'm reading this correct, it sounds like the two clowns in question are in a separate tank and the other tank is being treated with copper for ich? If so, keep an eye out on the two clowns for ich. If you have ich in a tank, then all fish should be considered to have ich - even if they're not showing it yet. And it sounds like all these fish were together for a while.

 

[picasso]

hello mr x
The anemone was in the community tank and was trasfered to the aggressive tank for safe keeping from the copper in the community tank. the female picasso is in there now but hardly moves. should I put a metal halide there or would another flourscent light do? the 50/50 light wont work?

 

[picasso]

hello kurt,
yes the picasso was moved from the community tank where she was originally placed. I went ahead and moved her to the fishless aggresvie tank due to her not being able to eat. she seemed to go after the food but as soon as the other fish got close she would wait in the anemone and not eat at all. Do you think I should move them back to the community tank to treat them for ich? The main reason I did the move was cuz my LFS owner told me that the clowns do not get ich they only get black ich in rare occasions. if indeed she can get ich would it help her being back in the copper tank?

 

[picasso]

hello ray
thanks for your reply. I decieded to to do a complete or 75% water change after the copper treatment in 16 days. Then change all my invertabrates back to the community tank. I do plan to send the sail fin tang to the aggresive tank. please advise

 

[pat8you]

Then change all my invertabrates back to the community tank.

What inverts are you moving back? Snail and hermits might be ok after a couple more water changes but i would not put them back in yet. Any copper in the water i think will kill them. Corals will not be able to go back into that tank. The copper gets and your rock and leeches out slowly. Even trace amounts will kill coral.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

..The main reason I did the move was cuz my LFS owner told me that the clowns do not get ich ...

Your LFS owner is wrong.

 

[Krypt]

What inverts are you moving back? Snail and hermits might be ok after a couple more water changes but i would not put them back in yet. Any copper in the water i think will kill them. Corals will not be able to go back into that tank. The copper gets and your rock and leeches out slowly. Even trace amounts will kill coral.

+1 for pat. Now that you've used copper in that tank, it's essentially useless for corals and inverts. As pat stated, once copper goes in, it soaks into the substrate,live rock, and any other porous material. I hate to be the bearer of bad news and I'm sorry your LFS told you it was fine.

 

[picasso]

how long must I wait to put my coral back into the tank?
as for the clowns should I do do another fresh water dip in the formalin or methylene blue?

 

[mr_X]

hello mr x
The anemone was in the community tank and was trasfered to the aggressive tank for safe keeping from the copper in the community tank. the female picasso is in there now but hardly moves. should I put a metal halide there or would another flourscent light do? the 50/50 light wont work?

i would put the halide over it. no. a 50/50 CF bulb will not sustain an anemone.

 

[xsmoker_3]

your tank is not going to be able to suport coral or inverts for a long time if ever and i have had a few clowns that got ich and they didnt make it you need to consider starting over .........maybe ......sorry its worst than you seem to know.

 

[picasso]

Hello all,
update, I gave picassos another formalin fresh water dip for 5 min. I placed them in a 2.5 gallon QT. left them there for an hour then put them back with the anemone. The male picasso seem to be doing just fine if not a little better. the female is simply staying at the bottom of the tank not eating still. Are the fresh water dips good? should I do them on a regular basis? do you think the the anemone will remove the ich when the are in the anemone?
I was told by the LFS where I purchased the picassos and the anemone that to leave them alone with their anemone. the anemone will kill of anything thats on them.