HELP !!! Ich??

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Nitrate

Aquarium Advice Freak
Joined
Feb 27, 2004
Messages
348
Location
Texas
I have an established 150 gal sw tank and about a month ago I added a flame angel and a week or so later I added a Coral Beauty which was promptly taken out by a small Trigger. So three weeks since last fish was added and it appears that I have the first signs of an infestation. No spots are visible on any of the fish, but a few days ago the Flame started rubbing on the rocks, a day later my Tang started doing it, and today I've noticed my Trigger and Porcupine doing it. (tank also has another puffer, a Lion, and a cowfish)

My LFS guru isn't answering his phone and I'm in a panic.

Should I add copper now or what?? Everyone is happy and eating well, my levels are all good. (although I did increase water temperature a few degrees about a week ago)

Please help
 
Don't ever .... EVER :nono: add copper to your main tank. It will completely destroy any and all inverts, and it will soak into your rock and substrate. It is very difficult to remove. If you don't have a DSB, and don't need to worry about any inverts including dusters, worms pods, ect. I would high suggest hyposalinity. No removing fish, and is effective. By the way it is great your wanting to act now. Any rubbing is not good, and you obviously caught it early.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

Best of luck
 
Thanks for the quick response. Has anyone had any luck with Garlic? Ive heard that it can help, but with my first experience with Ick I couldnt tell that it made a difference. I have access to a UV sterilizer as well and am wondering if I shouldnt rush to get it and hook it up.
 
I disagree if your treating ick for a FO tank. Copper is a very effective method of treating ick. Of course you need to consider the brand of copper. Over the past 25 yrs of keeping marine FO tanks, I've never had a disaster from dosing with copper. I do recommend Seachem's Cupramine over any other brand though. Copper is a lethal substance, but it also seems that Cupramine is in a less lethal formulation. Copper will be absorbed by your dead coral decorations and your crushed coral substrate so to have a correct ppm, you do need to test for concentration when treating for the copper to be effective. You also need to turn off any skimmers, UVs, ozonizers and remove your carbon. Once your treatment is over, you can turn on these equipment, perform a water change and add new carbon and the copper levels will be almost undetectable. (well undetectable with a copper test kit, but we all know that the dead coral & substrate will have absorbed some of this copper)
As with Hypo-salinity, in my experience, you need to bring the salinity all the way down to 1.010 SG for this to be theraputic. You need at least 7 days to bring this down from 1.024 SG ( no more than .002 per day). If you have a outbreak and did not catch it from the beginning, then 7 days might be too late. I've had success also with hypo-salinity, but I've also had a outbreak @ 1.014 SG.

If you have any inverts or live rock, then none of these options are for you.
 
If your going to use copper, then it's best to set up a quarentine tank. Once it's absorbed into the rock and substrate you can no longer keep inverts if you ever decide to. Since some of the copper will leach out over time. If you want to use copper set up a quarentine, or do hyposalinity.
 
Since I have two puffers and a trigger inverts are not an option anyway. I tried live rock about a year ago and my trigger tore it up pretty good. I did treat with Cupramine before I read Six-Line's post, but I am still running my skimmer and I added a UV sterilizer today (should I turn this off???)

Other than the UV and skimmer all I have is a wetdry, no carbon (I found out I dont care for carbon in my SW tank)
 
I'm pretty sure some if not all puffers can not tolerate copper.
 
When you use cupramine or any medication, you need to turn off your skimmer or it will pull the meds right out of the water. The Uv also needs to be turned off as per the manufacturers directions.
jamal-188 is correct about puffers & copper though. I think you need to do a little bit of research on them. If I remember correctly, they do not tolerate any copper meds well due to them being scaleless?
 
jamal-188 said:
I'm pretty sure some if not all puffers can not tolerate copper.
If used properly, puffers will tolerate Cupramine just fine. Ionic copper is what can prove fatal. They also do well in a hyposaline treatment. FYI, an SG of 1.014 is still enough for the parasite to survive albeit the reproductive stage is slower. 1.009 SG or preferabley 14 ppt measured with a refractometer is the best level for hyposalinity. The hyposaline environment should also be maintained for a full 4 weeks, 7 days is not enough time.

Cheers
Steve
 
When I first got my porcy he was about 9" long and developed a bad case off Ich soon after he entered my tank I treated with Cupramine (about 2 years ago) he survived it just fine. There were some scary moments during the treatment because I was a noob and didn't catch the Ich till it was probably in it's second cycle. I also used Garlic at the time but the only advantage it seemed to give was stimulating his appetite.

So I'm not concerned about the porcy and copper but maybe a bit worried about my cowfish and stars and stripes now.

Almost no rubbing today at all, only the Angel is doing it and he isnt doing it very much. This doesnt make any sense does it? The treatment wont do any good for Ich except in larval and egg form, right?

BTW I am new to the forums...sorry for posting this in the wrong section. I wondered why there were no Ich questions in here!!!!
 
Nitrate said:
This doesnt make any sense does it? The treatment wont do any good for Ich except in larval and egg form, right?
Actually the only time the parasite is ceceptible to treatment is during it's free swimming stage.

BTW I am new to the forums...sorry for posting this in the wrong section. I wondered why there were no Ich questions in here!!!!
Good point. Moved to the Sick fish/Coral forum.

Cheers
Steve
 
The hyposaline environment should also be maintained for a full 4 weeks, 7 days is not enough time.
Steve,

pecan2phat said that it would 7 days just to lower the SG to to proper level. Not that the treatment would be complete in that time.

I too am wondering if Cupramine might not be the way to go if you don't notice an outbreak in the very early stages.

I've only had one instance of Ich and was able to successfully treat the one fish with hyposalinity. I'm pretty sure that means that the parasite is still in the display tank, but the fish are healthy enough to fight off any attack. Does that sound about right?
 
cmor1701d said:
The hyposaline environment should also be maintained for a full 4 weeks, 7 days is not enough time.
Steve,

pecan2phat said that it would 7 days just to lower the SG to to proper level. Not that the treatment would be complete in that time.

Sorry, I misread that....
pecan2phat said:
You need at least 7 days to bring this down from 1.024 SG ( no more than .002 per day). If you have a outbreak and did not catch it from the beginning, then 7 days might be too late.
Sorry to do this again but... the SG can safely be lowered 0.003 every 12ish hours when done in a proper QT tank and the chemistry is properly monitored. It should only take 2½ days to lower the SG to 1.009

I too am wondering if Cupramine might not be the way to go if you don't notice an outbreak in the very early stages.
Even though this is one of the safer applications, I would still not recommend it's use in the main tank. If a QT is available, hypo will still be the best method if done correctly.

I've only had one instance of Ich and was able to successfully treat the one fish with hyposalinity. I'm pretty sure that means that the parasite is still in the display tank, but the fish are healthy enough to fight off any attack. Does that sound about right?
The fish can develope a certain amount of aquired immunity but it does not usually indicate they will be able to fend it off indefinately. If C. irritans is present in the display tank, it is only a matter of time before there is a full infestation. As I'm sure you are aware if hypo is not lowered proeprly to 14 ppt, the effects of the treatment will not be 100% accurate. That is why it is highly recommended not to use a hydrometer to monitor this treatment.

When treatment is successful and the main display is left fallow for the 4-6 week duration, the parasite will never be a problem again.

Cheers
Steve
 
All these posts seem to suggest that its either cupramine or hyposalinity, not both. Wouldnt both be the most efective treatment?
 
Nitrate said:
All these posts seem to suggest that its either cupramine or hyposalinity, not both. Wouldnt both be the most efective treatment?
Actually the combined treatments would be too stressful on the fish and possibley cause death. It is quite a toxic substance and will lower the fish's immune response making it more ceseptible to secondary infection. The lowered salinity and possibley lowered ph can also cause the copper to become unstable and fall out of solution.

You might find >>this<< article of interest.

Cheers
Steve
 
Everyone is handling the treatment well (cupramine) except for the flame angel. He appears to have two or three dead scales on one side of his body and a pectoral fin on that same side doesnt look too healthy. Is this a result of the copper treatment or do you think its a secondary infection of some sort?

My blue tang still rubs, but not very often and everyone else looks and acts fine.
 
If C. irritans is present in the display tank
Steve,

Absence of active infestation is there any sure-fire, easy method to determine if the parasite is indeed present in the display tank?

I had one purple firefish that displayed the classic rice spots (3 that I could see) and it was immediately removed and put in QT. That was back in August. I have not seen evidence of it surface since. As I'm about to be away for about a week, I'd hate to have an infestation pop up while a friend is looking after the tank for me.

TIA,

Seymour
 
Nitrate said:
Everyone is handling the treatment well (cupramine) except for the flame angel. He appears to have two or three dead scales on one side of his body and a pectoral fin on that same side doesnt look too healthy. Is this a result of the copper treatment or do you think its a secondary infection of some sort?
Could be secondary infection or the result of aggression. Keep tabs on it to be sure it does not get worse. Ensure there are plenty of places for the fish to hide. Monitor the water quality/chemistry daily and feed with vitamin enriched foods.

Cheers
Steve
 
cmor1701d said:
If C. irritans is present in the display tank
Steve,

Absence of active infestation is there any sure-fire, easy method to determine if the parasite is indeed present in the display tank?
Not without a microscope 8O

I had one purple firefish that displayed the classic rice spots (3 that I could see) and it was immediately removed and put in QT. That was back in August. I have not seen evidence of it surface since. As I'm about to be away for about a week, I'd hate to have an infestation pop up while a friend is looking after the tank for me.
If there where other fish in the main display with the firefish it is possible for the parasite to still be present. Unless all fish are removed for treatment, the cycle will typically continue. Even though you saw the spots and removed the fish, you cannot be sure there was at least one trophont ready to release and encysts which is all it would take.

Cheers
Steve
 
Thanks Steve,

That has been my fear since I saw the first spot. As I'm planning of converting from FOWLR to reef over teh next few months would a FO QT period in be worthwile?

Can a tank ever be truly Ich free unless you don't add anything to it? :?
 
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