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Old 04-24-2006, 02:32 PM   #1
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Help-Sick V-tail grouper

I have a 2 1/2 inch V-tail grouper. He has been extremely healthy, and eats chunks of peeled shrimp or fish, that I brought home from my step dads seafood company.

Over the last 3 or 4 days he has been acting erratic and I notices his forehead turned bright red, the rest of his body turned a pale red-pink, and his eyes have been bulging a little.

This morning he wont eat, and his right eyes is a little cloudy.

Is this some type of sickness, or is it possible he was stung by an anemone?

What can I do?

I will post pics when I get home later.

Thanks,

Billy

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Old 04-24-2006, 02:51 PM   #2
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Please do the routine water tests and post the results here. The cloudy eye is usually indicative of a bacterial infection. This will sometimes coincide with an outbreak of ich. What else is in the tank? The situations mentioned above are usually brought on by stress and poor water quality.
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Old 04-24-2006, 03:25 PM   #3
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The water is:

Alk - 0
NO2 - 0.2
NO3 - 0
PH - 8.2
Ammonia - .087

The only other fish in the tank is a fuzzy dwarf lion about the same size. There are 2 anemones, a feather duster, a chocolate chip star and a few hermit crabs.

He seems to be rubbing a lot around his forehead, and it is a darker red than the rest of his body, but not any reder than he gets when he is excited, so im not sure if it is blood and scrapes or just his color. The rest of his body is kinda pinky. No white spots of any kind of stuff on him, just poor color. His eyes look kind of strange like he is "out of it" and the right one is a little cloudy and he just sits under his favorite rock or deep in his shell.

He just ate a day ago, and the lionfish is healthy.

If he is sick, how can I treat him?.....I have no QT, and their are a couple anemones and tube worms in the tank.
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Old 04-24-2006, 09:40 PM   #4
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Can you post a pick? Considering the natural coloration of this species, your descriptions not that definitive.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 04-24-2006, 09:46 PM   #5
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You have really bad water. NH-.087 and NO2-.2 I would turn red too. 8O
You need to do some WC's to get your water quality up.
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Old 04-24-2006, 10:19 PM   #6
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This was him on the 22nd.....


This is him on the 23rd.....



Should I do a good water change tomarrow?....what % if so?

I know he is tough so I hope he makes it, after the water change, is there anything else I can do.

The lion is fine still.
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Old 04-24-2006, 10:27 PM   #7
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You need a WC now. Do you have any prime or similar to detoxify the NH3? A fish will not live long at all in that much NH3. You can try vacuuming debris from the bottom. I am guessing the raw shrimp + sloppy eaters has caused this water problem. How large is this tank?
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Old 04-24-2006, 10:34 PM   #8
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The tank is 10 gal.

I am about to move in a week or two and I have a 55 gal I am going to set up for them.

I have been doing 1 gal water changes once or twice a week for the last few months, the tank is 4 months old. I have a skilter 250 with an air stone in it.

The fish have been healthy up until this point.

I pick up all the shrimp that they dont eat, but im sure some gets missed.

I have some Cylce for my fresh water tanks, should I add some to the tank?
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Old 04-24-2006, 11:01 PM   #9
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8O I know you do not want to hear this but, if you want to save these fish see if the local store will take them back. You have a grouper, a fuzzy dwarf lion, 2 anemones, a feather duster, a chocolate chip star and a few hermit crabs in a 10 gallon tank. In short. I can not be done. You have 2 of the heaviest bio-load producing fish you can get. This is not even feasible in a 55 gal. If you do not do something really soon you will lose everything in your tank.
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Old 04-24-2006, 11:08 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeDemTails
The tank is 10 gal.
You kidding me.. 8O

Quote:
I am about to move in a week or two and I have a 55 gal I am going to set up for them.
Even a 55 gal is far too small for this species. This grouper will get close to 10". It belongs in a system about 3 times this size.

You need to increase your water changes to about 50% and evry day until ammonia and nitrite are no longer detectable. You also need to find it a new home. As long as the grouper stays confined like this, it will not live long.

Cheers
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:48 AM   #11
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I know all about how big they will get.

My old 125 gal tank is still set up in my dads florida room, and has my origional salwater fish still in it, my 12" panther grouper, a 10 " spotted grouper and a 5 inch huma huma.

However when I went to school they wouldnt let me keep the tank of course at my new place.

BUT IM MOVING NOW!

All the fish are many years old in this tank.

I plan on putting these fish in the tank when they get big enough, but that wont be for a while. I couldnt find a fuzzy dwarf any bigger than 2 inches so I just planned to raise him. The v-tail was just for company and something around the same size as him so I could raise them together. And they are perfect tank mates, never once has either been aggressive towards the other.

I cant just add them to the big tank as much as I would ikte too, or they would just be another meal.

I planned to raise them till they were about 5 or 6 inches in the 55 gal, and then move them in with the big boys and turn the 55 into a reef.

I have had no problems with my other tanks ever, but none have ever been as small as this tank. I know it isnt the right size tank to raise these fish in, but I have no option until I move in a couple weeks, and it is surley better than the LFS where the lion had been for months in a 6x6" cube. And the fish are small enough right now that they can comfortably swim around in this tank, however I kow that wont last more than a few months.

I am moving around may 5th-10th so I will be setting up somthing bigger for them ASAP.

In the mean time, after the water changes, whats next?.....can I treat them? How should I treat them with inverts in the tank?......should I but another tank and make it a QT? I hate to setup anymore tanks with this move being so close, the fish have been great for months, I wish they would have been good for a week or two more!

ALSO.....I noticed that my lions fins on either side are a little frayed, and that as he hunts around the tank he always gets stung a little by this anemone. Is this going to hurt him, because it seems like it happens everyday. As he swims past it I seem him barley touch it and then dart away.
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Old 04-25-2006, 04:34 PM   #12
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Very glad to hear. Believe it or not, we do rarely see this kind of upgrade process from people so don't take the lecture to hard. We had your's and the fish's best interest at heart.

FWIW, both of these fish should be fine to move to the large tank once they are about 4".... Really comes down to are they mouth size for the larger groupers.

I think your current problem is an accumulation of circumstances for the most part. As soon as other arrangements can be made to seperate the cnidarians from the fish or at least give them more room you'll see a fair improvement. In the interim, all you can do is rely heavily on water changes. Make sure they are large and more than once a week. Running with carbon in a high flow filter (HOB?) will help reduce chemical pollutants/toxins.

At this point, I see nothing "treatable", it's more or less stress/environment related. Keep an eye on the grouper is the red looks worse or not. Vibrio is a possibility as is a common bacterial infection but will be hard to determine given the fish's otherwise blotchy appearance/coloration. You'll need to be very careful to examine the fish for any potential signs of rash, scales looking odd, cottony tufts, ulcers, red streaks, eye being continually cloudy and so on.

Cheers
Steve
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Old 04-25-2006, 07:34 PM   #13
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I did a 25% water change tonight, and I bought some Mardel "Maracyn" for the fish as an antibiotic just becuase the grouper has rubbed his forehead pretty raw, the guys at the LFS said would be ok for my anemones and feather dusters.

I am going to do another 25% change tomarrow, and another in a couple days.

Thats for careing about the fish guys!...some peole only care about how they look, not how they feel!

As far as filtration goes, I have a skilter 250 with an airstone to make it work better.

Steve....once again thanks man!
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Old 04-26-2006, 05:17 PM   #14
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Be careful using anti's in your display tank. While it won't harm the inhabitants, it will impeed your biofilter so test daily for NH3 and NO2. Do water changes as needed to keep nitrogens in check. With Maracyn II, it needs to be added daily for 7 days @ 2mg/gal with a 25% water change prior to each new dose. Anything less will not be effective.

If the problem gets worse even with the Marcyn use, you may need to switch to Nitrofurazone but that will need a QT.

Cheers
Steve
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