How to treat ick in reef no quaratine!

[melosu58]

IMO FW dips dont work. If you get a fish already stressed then the dip will probably kill them. If they are OK then the dip will weaken him. Never seen one do any good. Not discounting anyone elses opinion or experience. Just giving mine.

[My Little Ocean]

Originally Posted by melosu58

IMO FW dips dont work. If you get a fish already stressed then the dip will probably kill them. If they are OK then the dip will weaken him. Never seen one do any good. Not discounting anyone elses opinion or experience. Just giving mine.

That's what I found when I did mine I HAVE to agree with you on that one

[Fishguy2727]

That article is inaccurate. One of its sources found that garlic did kill parasites.

Multiple studies have demonstrated that allicin can actively kill parasites. Those are scientific articles published in peer-reviewed journals. But I guess an opinion posted online is more credible to some...

[CaptainAhab]

All the dip does it get the ich parasite off the fish. It doesn't address the fact that the entire environment is infected. You're trying to plug the hole in a dike with your thumb. Harsh advice: get a grip , do some research and for the sake of your fish stop adding new fish with full QT.

[hiltymj]

Ya I agree I have seen it work well though for a lot of fish but I've seen it make things worse you just need to watch how the fish is doing in the bucket

[melosu58]

I personally will believe that article before I believe other so called never seen articles. Try not to dog my article when you cant even post one of your own. I`m trying to help the OP here and maybe you should try the same thing. This is not a fight on who has the best substance. Post some evidence for him to see on the subject. Whatever you do dont feel threatened. We are all here to help each other.

[Fishguy2727]

Okay. If people want the facts, here they are. Here are the articles I cited in the article I wrote that was published in this years April issue of Aquarium Fish International on how garlic:

Ankri, S., and D. Mirelman. 2001. “Antimicrobial properties of allicin from garlic.” Microbes and Infection 2:125-129

Boxaspen, K., and J.C. Holm. 1992. “New biocides used against sea lice compared to organo-phosphorous compounds.” European Aquaculture Society

Coppi, A., M. Cabinian, D. Mirelman, and P. Sinnis. 2006. “Antimalarial Activity of Allicin, a Biologically Active Compound from Garlic Cloves.” Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy 5:1731-1737

D.L.N. 1998. “Allicin, one of the active principles of garlic, inhibits the growth of protozoan parasites.” Chemtech 4:45

Holden, C. 1997. “Fighting Parasites With Garlic.” Science. 5338:581

Soko, C. K., and D.E. Barker. 2004. “Efficacy of crushed garlic and lemon juice as bio-product treatments for Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (‘ich’) infections among juvenile Nile tilapia, Oreochromis niloticus.” Aquaculture Association of Canada 9:108-110





And here is my response from a previous thread to that article (mainly its references):

I looked into that article again, especially the references, and was surprised. One of the articles actually states right in the abstract that allicin (chemical in freshly pressed garlic) actually killed ich.

Here are his references and my responses to them:

Colorni, Angelo, Rami Avtalion, Wayne Knibb, Evelyn Berger, Barbara Colorni, & Bracha Timan. 1998. "Histopathology of sea bass (Dicentrarchus labrax) experimentally infected with Mycobacterium marinum and treated with streptomycin and garlic (Allium sativum) extract." Aquaculture 160(1998)1-17.
-This study only shows that Mycobacterium marinum is not cured by allicin. This does not apply to garlic’s anti-parasitic properties since this is a bacteria (or even other bacteria).

Ashdown, Denise & Gary Violetta. 2004. "Using Garlic as an Appetite Stimulant in Sand Tiger Sharks (Carcharias taurus)." Drum & Croaker, January 2004, Volume 35, pages 59-63.
-This study discusses garlic’s use as an appetite stimulant, which doesn’t speak to its anti-parasitic properties (for or against).

Buchmann, K., P. B. Jensen, & K. D. Kruse. 2003. "Effects of Sodium Percarbonate and Garlic Extract on Ichthyophthirius multifiliis Theronts and Tomocysts: In Vitro Experiments." North American Journal of Aquaculture, Volume 65, Number 1, pages 21-24, 2003.
Abstract excerpt:
“Garlic extract had no effect in low amounts (30 mg/L), but at high concentrations (117 and 570 mg/L) it killed the tomocysts within 24 h.”
-This article shows that garlic can actually kill Ich tomocysts, although more garlic is required to be effective compared to malachite green.

Colorni, Angelo & Peter Burgess. 1997. "Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the cause of 'white spot disease' in marine fish: an update." Aquarium Sciences and Conservation, volume 1, pages 217-238.
-This article’s abstract and introduction did not mention garlic.

Fairfield, Terry. 1996. "Garlic & Your Aquarium: A Preliminary report on Allium sativum and fishkeeping." Aquarium Fish Magazine, January 1996, pages 79-83.
-This is not primary scientific research, and therefore scientifically cannot be considered as proof/disproof or support/lack of support of anything.

[My Little Ocean]

No more fish will be added until I see no ich and I get a quarantine which will be some time, I've had to learn the hard way on this captain so your know it all attitude doesn't help my current situation, at the end of the day I'm sure all of us have had to learn something at some point and probably wont stop learning one of the joys of this hobby. I'm dosing oodinex at the mo which I'll keep posted on another thread of the outcome, thanks for everyone's help

[Fishguy2727]

Take special note that one of the references listed in that article states right in the abstract that allicin killed ich tomocysts. If the author properly analyzed the facts in his own references he should have caught that. If he missed/ignored that how biased/inaccurate is the rest of the article?

[melosu58]

That`s what I`m talking about. Show your evidence so we can all see. I do appreciate the effort.

[melosu58]

I`m still going to go by what Steven Pro based on his article and my experience. Never known the first person except you to have any luck killing ich with garlic. I`m not discounting your experience I just want the OP to have plenty of evidence to choose from. I think we accomplished that. He has yours and he has mine and anyone elses that cares to share. That is the goal.

[Fishguy2727]

It doesn't mean it will kill or cure white spot every time.

The goal of that article was to 'disprove' the 'myths' around garlic. Granted it is far from 100% effective (like most meds), but it is a good option in a reef. The poor analysis of the references in that article are all I need to disregard it. It is obviously biased at best and not well supported. But again, this far from means that garlic WILL kill white spot in any given situation.

It just bothers me to see such misinformation cited over and over as fact or proof when there is other evidence out there that some people simply choose to ignore or are simply unaware of.

[Fishguy2727]

Also be aware that the most effective form of garlic is freshly pressed, not any of that off the shelf garlic additive stuff. There are two chemicals in garlic that when combined form allicin, which is not stable for more than a few hours (if I remember correctly). This means that adding those liquid garlic additives, although they smell strong, are not going to contain the anti-parasitic properties of freshly pressed garlic. This may be one reason that there is less than ample evidence of this working in the hobby. Most hobbyists are using foods 'enriched' with garlic or liquid additives, not freshly pressed.

[melosu58]

Do you have a link to your article?

[Fishguy2727]

No. The only thing they put online was the references (which they didn't put at the end of the article) and I am not allowed to reproduce it.

It briefly discusses each article and shows that it is scientifically supported that garlic is much more than an immune system booster (which I have never seen explained, just compared to vitamin C). The studies have shown that allicin can kill viruses, bacteria, fungi, and parasites.

[melosu58]

So where can I find a copy of this article?

[hiltymj]

So buying cloves of garlic and pressing them and getting that juice is fine for the aquarium? Or something else. I'm new to sw so I'm trying to learn as much as possible. Could you guys explain this garlic thing to me just not following to well

[Fishguy2727]

April 2011 Aquarium Fish International Magazine, p. 114.

[Fishguy2727]

Take the juice and soak the food in it.

[hiltymj]

Ok I'll just stick with that