Ich?

[wrasse326]

Yep I agree with that. A parasite cannot form out of nowhere. It's not a bacteria or a virus or whatever it's a parasite. Just like fleas do not just grow out of no where on dogs. They come from eggs and eggs and fleas have to be present before a dog just gets fleas.

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[Gregcoyote]

The concept that your tank is a sterile environment is what's ridiculous. Let's keep this on a respectful level. It's a discussion.

Then where does the parasite come from when nothing has been introduced? It is and has been present in the tank all along. There just hasn't been a sick fish to act as host for it to appear visually and multiply. Like the fleas above, they don't just spontaneously appear.

[Hondatek]

It all depends on the persons quarantine procedures . Without knowing exactly how everything was done I cannot answer that question . And either can you
I also know for a fact that my tank is 100% free of the ich parasite because every single one of my fish has went thru hypo. I invite anyone to come chase my fish around and try to stress them out as much as they please . Nothing will happen because I took the nessesary steps to prevent it . I am not attacking anyone with my response and if you took it that way I apologize. I was merely stating it can be 100% eradicated .

[Gregcoyote]

I appreciate that. My "theory" is that Ich can hide in unexpected hosts for longer than 8 weeks. Otherwise, where did it come from, nothing was introduced. No QT because nothing was added but food.

I would also suggest that I could take one of your fish and stress it to the point it develops Ich, or another pathogen even in your system. Let's not try that experiment.

People with collapsed immune systems eventually get sick because it's very difficult, almost impossible over the long term, to have living things in a totally sterile environment. My point was it's better to raise strong resistant, stress free fish because then their natural immune systems makes it almost impossible for Ich to multiply. If a fish looses its slime coat, something will attack it.

[Hondatek]

Oh I agree it can hide for more than 8 weeks. I have read an account online where ich survived in a fallow tank for 13 weeks . Unfortunately I cannot find that link anywere .
I will not say my tank is sterile but I have went to great lengths to ensure my tank is 100% ich free and I do believe it is and other tanks can be . Hypo qt is not the normal thing I know but it does work for me and most fish do come with ich .
I agree with everything about the stress and slime coat it just isn't something I rely on personally . In my eyes it can be controlled so that is what I believe I am doing . We as hobbyist will never be able to test tanks for ich anyways . We all just do what we feel is needed .

[Gregcoyote]

Right, but the engineer in me wants answers. I want to take some samples to our local university and do some scans. I predict I will be surprised what I find in the water.

[mr_X]

Originally Posted by Mebbid

I'm have a question to both Greg and X. What happens when a new fish is added into your tanks (which is a fairly stressful situation) and gets ich. This ich multiplying and causing a large.. bloom for lack of a better word of the parasite in your tank. Presumably the fish haven't developed an immunity since it's still present in your tanks but wouldn't that in itself potentially cause a cascade effect?

The new fish would swim around with the ich until it gets comfortable, and then you would see it recover. I have done this on more than one occasion. I have lost 1 fish in a decade this way. A high strung Achilles Tang. 4 tangs were added at once. They all got a pretty heavy ich infestation, the Achilles died, and the other three recovered. Ich was in my tank then, correct? From then on, every fish I added did just fine.
I never saw it again.

[mr_X]

What I do when I see a fish that comes in not doing well is get him in a stress free environment as fast as I can. Tossing it in a small tank with some bright white pvc pipes is simply not that.

[Gregcoyote]

Yep, that's how my world works as well. Haven't had Ich in 20 years and I take zero precautions against it, other than plenty of room and good food.

[molliwopp]

Originally Posted by Gregcoyote

I appreciate that. My "theory" is that Ich can hide in unexpected hosts for longer than 8 weeks. Otherwise, where did it come from, nothing was introduced. No QT because nothing was added but food.

I would also suggest that I could take one of your fish and stress it to the point it develops Ich, or another pathogen even in your system. Let's not try that experiment.

People with collapsed immune systems eventually get sick because it's very difficult, almost impossible over the long term, to have living things in a totally sterile environment. My point was it's better to raise strong resistant, stress free fish because then their natural immune systems makes it almost impossible for Ich to multiply. If a fish looses its slime coat, something will attack it.

I agree with this when it comes to weakened fish contacting illnesses which obviously stands to reason that a fish thats healthly will fight.

On a side note, there arnt many places bar afew that are completely sterile especially not an aquarium with plenty of water, heat and light. Which is infact a good thing. A germ free enviroment would cause other problems. The ammune system works best when its fighting and repelling. Left dormant the ammune system can almost stop working where a simple cold bug could become deadly serious.

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[Reeffanman]

It's quite the debate going on here. I can see both sides of this one. The theory is there that you can achieve a system that has no ich. And that is not a hard concept to achieve. Simply strict qt'ing. The only problem is that you have to also qt all inverts and coral for 8 weeks not everyone is set up to do this.

And I will agree that what works for Mr x will not work for everyone due to the fact that he has much more knowledge and has done more research than most of us. His decisions have kept his tank stress free. Good for him. Although if something catastrophic happens to his tank the parasite has the ability to take over and seriously cripple his fish.

Both methods have their pros and cons. IMO neither should be considered wrong.

[Hondatek]

About the invert qt. There is a pretty good way around that and it is pretty simple . Basically setup a few containers of tank water about 5-8 of them. Then put all the inverts in the first one and let them soak for a few minutes . Then move them all to the next and keep repeating for each container . The theory here is because the parasite is only hitching a ride and not embedding itself in the let's say hermit crab for an example , by the time it reaches the last container all parasites that have hitched a ride should be washed off in the first few containers . Still isn't fool proof but it is better than nothing .

[mr_X]

Originally Posted by Reeffanman

Although if something catastrophic happens to his tank the parasite has the ability to take over and seriously cripple his fish.

Like what for instance?

[Gregcoyote]

If you mortally stress a fish, even in your Ich free tank, I guarantee it will be attacked by a opportunistic virus or bacteria that is already present in your tank when it's slime coat fails. There are no sterile, totally disease free aquariums out there in hobbiest hands.

Low stress is the only long term protection you can give your fish. JIMO

[wrasse326]

Well idk how my sailfin tang was getting stressed every other day when nobody ever fought and I never changed anything. But every other day he broke out with ich. And he was eating great. Ate anything I put in there and I was feeding him good food. He was healthy and still is. So how exactly do you stop that when your doing absolutely nothing to stress the fish and yet he still is covered in ich every other day

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[Hondatek]

Originally Posted by Gregcoyote

If you mortally stress a fish, even in your Ich free tank, I guarantee it will be attacked by a opportunistic virus or bacteria that is already present in your tank when it's slime coat fails. There are no sterile, totally disease free aquariums out there in hobbiest hands.

Low stress is the only long term protection you can give your fish. JIMO

I do not think that was directed at me but just for the record I am not arguing that point nor did I mention my tank is disease proof and sterile . What I did say is my tank is 100% free of any ich parasite and anyone who wants to do the work theirs can be also. That was my one and only point of posting in this thread .

[Gregcoyote]

I understand, I just don't think you can ever guarantee yourself a perfectly disease free environment.

[Gregcoyote]

Originally Posted by wrasse326

Well idk how my sailfin tang was getting stressed every other day when nobody ever fought and I never changed anything. But every other day he broke out with ich. And he was eating great. Ate anything I put in there and I was feeding him good food. He was healthy and still is. So how exactly do you stop that when your doing absolutely nothing to stress the fish and yet he still is covered in ich every other day

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How can you state he is stress free? Something is causing his slime coat to fail or he wouldn't have Ich. If that wasn't the case, every sailfin would have Ich constantly. They repel the parasite when healthy. How big is the sailfins tank?

My point is that you can run UV and other disease prevention measures and they don't work as well as tackling the usual causes of the outbreak, stress.

[Hondatek]

Originally Posted by Gregcoyote

I understand, I just don't think you can ever guarantee yourself a perfectly disease free environment.

I agree 100% diseases cannot be controlled but parasites ( ich) can be if you are willing to do the work involved. This is a good discussion and I hope there are no hard feelings taken from it .

[Gregcoyote]

No, none at all! Debate is what uncovers the truth .