Ich, what to do for the best ? Please Help - With pictures.

[jabba]

PH 8.0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 50mg
SG 1.2
Temp 82C (just to try and speed the ich cycle up)
150 UK Gallons
FOWLR

Hi

I have tried to read up as best I can on ich as it would seem that my fish have started to suffer from it, I have already lost in the last 48 hours a yellow tang and now my regals are covered in it.

All the fish are still very active though and are feeding well especially on the sea veggies I have in the tank.

Am I right in thinking that a healthy and strong fish's immune system usually would keep ich in check ? does that also mean that the fish's immune system actually kills the parasite or it just can cope with it better?

As I understand it, having LR my options for using treatments are very limited and they seem to be a bit hit and miss anyway.

So ruling out catching the fish for going into quarantine I am left with as I understand it reducing the salinity down to say 1.1 to try and kill the parasites.

What is the pay off for this ? how many of my other fish will be harmed by this vs the actual parasites ?

In particular I have some urchins that I know are quite sensitive to salinity changes, would they survive at 1.1 if I changed it very slowly ?

My other fish are

Yellow tangs x 6
Regal x3
SP Angel x1
Foxface x1
Hermit crabs x 8
Cleaner shrimp x4
urchins x4

I now have 100 liters of RO water ready to put in, my main question is do I put it in as fresh water to reduce the salinity or just try a 25% normal water change to try and keep the fish in better condition to fight the parasites.

BTW I am a total noob at this, so please go easy with me, thanks for any help and advice.

 

[austinsdad]

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/article_view.php?faq=2&fldAuto=50

Gotta read this article.

I also notice tangs with ripped fins in the pics above. May have agression issues even with such a large tank. Fighting and nitrates are my first suspicions on the immune systems and subsequent infestation. May have to really re-think your stocking of fish. The hippo tang/regals you have are notorius for ick sensitivity.

Got damsels too? Nitrate at 50? How old is the tank? Looks really young since not much coraline is present I can see. Could have been too many fish added too quickly. What kinda filtration (other than rocks) are ya working with? There may lie the nitrate problem. Could be that, yet I'm also thinkning your cleanup crew is waaay too small (not to update until after you do hyposalinity or meds and treat the ich).

You're really gonna have to narrow down the likely causes of the outbreak and prevent it from happening again. I think I've given you a few suspects above to work with.

 

[jabba]

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/article_view.php?faq=2&fldAuto=50

Gotta read this article.

I also notice tangs with ripped fins in the pics above. May have agression issues even with such a large tank. Fighting and nitrates are my first suspicions on the immune systems and subsequent infestation. May have to really re-think your stocking of fish. The hippo tang/regals you have are notorius for ick sensitivity.

Got damsels too? Nitrate at 50? How old is the tank? Looks really young since not much coraline is present I can see. Could have been too many fish added too quickly. What kinda filtration (other than rocks) are ya working with? There may lie the nitrate problem. Could be that, yet I'm also thinkning your cleanup crew is waaay too small (not to update until after you do hyposalinity or meds and treat the ich).

You're really gonna have to narrow down the likely causes of the outbreak and prevent it from happening again. I think I've given you a few suspects above to work with.

Thanks for the reply.

This tank is about 4 years old, and the rock and some of the fish are 7 years old (from my previous setup) :

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=9683&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Although you are correct that I have only recently increased the stock by 50% in the last 3 weeks. The poor condition yellow tang is one of the originals from 1999 and I think its just a case he is getting a bit old and has lost most of his colour over the last 3 years, he does seem to be able to survive anything though, and is highly active and eats very well.

The filtration I am running are a couple of eheim 2048's one set up with Ehfimech x 2 litre, Ehfisubstrate x 5 litre, course and fine filter pads.

The other 2048 has kent marine carbon and 3x poly filter and the filter pads again.

I also have an RO unit now so that water changes will be much easier for me (instead of going to the marine shop)

I have no doubt that you are right, that I added too many new fish at once and that is what has caused the ich.

ok so now we know what caused it, and that I have sufficient filtration (I think) now to hopefully prevent it for the future we are back to the current situation. I will also increase my cleaning crew as you have suggested with additional urchins, hermit crabs and a serpant star.

What would you do : I have 100 liters of RO water ready to put in, do I put it in as fresh water to reduce the salinity or just try a 25% normal water change to try and keep the fish in better condition to fight the parasites. ??

 

[austinsdad]

Never did the hyposalinity thing. Didja read the article? I believe you shouldn't lower it too qwikly, but I'm not sure.

Gotta get those nitrates down to 20 or below.

 

[jabba]

Yeh I have been trying like crazy and at huge cost with those polyfilters and also I got this today : JBL Bio NitratEX

http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalogue/jbl-filter-media.asp

But I guess nothing will beat 20% water changes with my RO unit to try and get those nitrates down.

Thanks again for your help.

EDIT:

Didja read the article? I believe you shouldn't lower it too qwikly, but I'm not sure.

Yes and it is an EXCELLENT article and that is what I think I am going to start doing tonight, firstly by swapping out 50 litres or so.

The only this I cant find an answer to is this point:

" Once your salinity is down to 1.009, you want to keep it there for 6wks or at least 4wks after the last cyst was present"

Do you know what effect that level of salinty would have on the stock that I have i.e. even if done slowly would it kill my cleaner shrimps for example ?

I guess in any case it can only help reduce the nitrate problem as well.

 

[cmor1701d]

Yes, it will kill all inverts. If you plan on doing hypo in the main tank (and with your stocking level I don't think you much choice), you should set up a small tank for the inverts. That tank should be at 1.024-.1026 SG.

The main tank would then be gradually lowered, over the course of a week, to 1.009. Keep it that level for at least 4 weeks, then take a week to increase the SG slowly batck to 1.024-1.026.

Keep an eye on the pH and all other levels while doing the hypo. Good luck with the treatment.

 

[austinsdad]

Another article that is sure to help you.

http://www.fantasyreef.com/database/index.php?p=getitem&db_id=11&item_id=1

 

[melosu58]

I believe you have two problems here. You have the parasite in your tank and you also have a bacterial thing going on hence the tang with the eroded fin. All this is caused by adding too much at one time. Esp too many tangs at one time. Your natural filtration (nitrifying bacteria) could not keep up and causing stress to the fish. IMO I would almost do a 25% PWC first to help relieve some of the stress. It would take a heck of alot of of QT space for all those tangs and you cant do hypo in the main or you`ll lose your inverts. I`d almost think about doing frequent PWC`s to relieve the stress unless you can get several QT`s or your LFS could maybe hold them for you. Here are some more articles on ick.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

 

[austinsdad]

I'm liking the 20g inverrt tank option so you can hypo the main with all the fish.

Guys, whaddya think? Some rock from the main with new SW to seed the 20g. 30lbs or so?Doesn't look like enuf sand to put in the invert tank. The rock should do, right? A powerhead, hob skimmer (needed?), and real a cheap light. The again, for future additions, now ya gotta QT tank after this is all over with.

Yeah, the large pwc sounds good too. Just make up some more water in case ya gotta do it again soon. Gonna need some anyway for your new invert/QT tank, right? 8)

 

[jabba]

I'm liking the 20g inverrt tank option so you can hypo the main with all the fish.

Guys, whaddya think? Some rock from the main with new SW to seed the 20g. 30lbs or so?Doesn't look like enuf sand to put in the invert tank. The rock should do, right? A powerhead, hob skimmer (needed?), and real a cheap light. The again, for future additions, now ya gotta QT tank after this is all over with.

Yeah, the large pwc sounds good too. Just make up some more water in case ya gotta do it again soon. Gonna need some anyway for your new invert/QT tank, right? 8)

That is exactly what I have decided to do. Please remember though this is a damage limitation excercise so there is bound to be some casualties sadly.

Firstly when I got home there was a regal dead that I was lucky enough to be able to hook out and the Raccoon Butterfly wasnt looking good at all.

I wasnt going to stand around any longer so decided to act right away.

I hooked out the urchins and five hermit crabs (I read that they would probably be ok with the drop in salinity, but they sure didnt look happy once I started) and I also managed to catch a cleaner shrimp. All went into the only bucket that I had which I put some LR into and a small airstone with some gravel. I also managed to catch the Raccoon Butterfly which I put into the ro fresh water that I had matched in temp and PH (had to yank the heater from the main tank for a few mins) after about 5 mins the parasites all fell off him, and he seemed alot happier. He went back into the bucket with the others. I dropped the main tank down to 1.012 with 125 litres of RO and added ph buffer etc. I planned to further drop it down to 1.009 tonight but the marine shop advised against this with tangs and said to not reduce it any further.

Everything made it through the night I am pleased to say, and I headed over to the marine shop first thing and got a small tank for the inverts and to see if the Raccoon Butterfly will recover (I dont want to risk further polluting the main tank should he sadly die). I was going to set this up exactly as austinsdad has suggested.

On Monday I hope to order a bigger tank for future QT of new fish etc.

Thanks again for all your great help and advice.

I`d almost think about doing frequent PWC`s to relieve the stress unless you can get several QT`s or your LFS could maybe hold them for you. Here are some more articles on ick.

I still cant get an answer to this, if the fish are able to fight off the parasites with their imune systems through less stress and better water quality does that actually kill the parasites or do they just remain in the tank looking for a moment of weakness in the fish again ?

 

[cmor1701d]

The Raccoon Butterfly needs to go back in the main tank with all the other fish. All fish need to go through the hypo treatment. BUT, you are dropping the salinity way too fast. It should go down a few points each and take a week to get down to 1.009. That will help reduce the additional stress on the fish.

If you leave the butterly in the invert tank then that tank will never be free of Ich, you will re-infect the main tank when put the inverts and rock back. That tank needs to be fishless and the fish tank needs to remain at 1.009 for at least 4 weeks.

You should also consider reducing your stock. You have too many large fish for that tank.

Do you have two airstones in the main tank? Are they for effect only?

 

[jabba]

ahh, I thought I had removed the ich from the butterfly after the fresh water dip, anyway the marine shop said put him back in the main tank as well so indeed that is where he is now going.

Yes two airstones that are not for effect and the tank is US 180 gallons and according to the marine shop it is no where near its limits. I did however without a doubt add too much all at once after keeping a very small stock for many years.

 

[roka64]

I still cant get an answer to this, if the fish are able to fight off the parasites with their imune systems through less stress and better water quality does that actually kill the parasites or do they just remain in the tank looking for a moment of weakness in the fish again ?

First, I want to say thanks for taking all the great advice already given. It's really good to see a person who actually listens and cares about their critters...
To answer your question. Reducing the stress can not hurt, but the parasite will still be in the tank and attack the weaker of the fish. It is best to do the hyposalinity and try to completely kill off the parasite. I have read that adding garlic guard to their frozen food can help to boost their immune systems.

 

[austinsdad]

does that actually kill the parasites or do they just remain in the tank looking for a moment of weakness in the fish again ?

I think that's a question for the ages. There are those who think it is ALWAYS present as you describe. I'm not one to answer that one - and you will get a LOT of varying opinions on it, that's for darn sure.

I agree, all fish need to be hypo'd. Even the invert tank has to remain fishless for 6-8 weeks so that the free floating ick in there now, will die off without a fish host.

 

[jabba]

I still cant get an answer to this, if the fish are able to fight off the parasites with their imune systems through less stress and better water quality does that actually kill the parasites or do they just remain in the tank looking for a moment of weakness in the fish again ?

First, I want to say thanks for taking all the great advice already given. It's really good to see a person who actually listens and cares about their critters...
To answer your question. Reducing the stress can not hurt, but the parasite will still be in the tank and attack the weaker of the fish. It is best to do the hyposalinity and try to completely kill off the parasite. I have read that adding garlic guard to their frozen food can help to boost their immune systems.

Yep, I was up gone past 2am last night trying to carry out the best rescue operation that I could, at least then I know I did try my best and make the best of a very bad situation that I created, and I know that I must carry the guilt for that.

Hopefully though if just one single fish can be saved then it will have all been well worth it. Thanks also to my old buddy Aaron for creating such a great forum which has such an outstanding and very helpful and knowledgable community.

does that actually kill the parasites or do they just remain in the tank looking for a moment of weakness in the fish again ?

I think that's a question for the ages. There are those who think it is ALWAYS present as you describe. I'm not one to answer that one - and you will get a LOT of varying opinions on it, that's for darn sure.

I agree, all fish need to be hypo'd. Even the invert tank has to remain fishless for 6-8 weeks so that the free floating ick in there now, will die off without a fish host.

Yeh this is a question that the marine shop always kinda dodges as well, I guess they dont want to give the impression that they sell fish with parasites. If only they had advised me to get a QT just to be sure then this of course seems to be the best way of trying to keep the main tank parasite free.

 

[cmor1701d]

Any time you add something to your main tank that came from another tank with fish in it you have the possibility of adding the Ich parasite to your tank.
In a well maintained, uncrowded tank the fish can usually fight off the parasite and it doesn't become a problem (IMO). Adding too many fish (crowding), letting water parameters slip, etc. and it can come on with a vengeance.

I was pretty sure that my tank was Ich free after I completed a hypo treatment of all fish last year and then QTd every new coral before adding it to the tank. This past weekend I had a couple of plate corals that were not doing well so I transferred them to the main after less than a week in QT. I'm not overly concerned because there was so little water transfer, but the possibility does exist.

 

[jabba]

Any time you add something to your main tank that came from another tank with fish in it you have the possibility of adding the Ich parasite to your tank.
In a well maintained, uncrowded tank the fish can usually fight off the parasite and it doesn't become a problem (IMO). Adding too many fish (crowding), letting water parameters slip, etc. and it can come on with a vengeance.

I was pretty sure that my tank was Ich free after I completed a hypo treatment of all fish last year and then QTd every new coral before adding it to the tank. This past weekend I had a couple of plate corals that were not doing well so I transferred them to the main after less than a week in QT. I'm not overly concerned because there was so little water transfer, but the possibility does exist.

Firstly, thanks very much for all your help and advice so far.

I took another salinity reading last night of the main tank and you will be pleased to hear that it is 1.016 not 1.012 and everything seems to be much happier (this was done on Thursday evening) when do you suggest reducing it down further and to what level ?

How about in the mean time if I change another 100 litres over but rather than just RO I also make that 1.016 and match the PH to that of the main tank etc ?

I did this with the hospital tank (matching salinity, ph and temp etc) and it worked out really well, (everything is still alive so far)

Do you know what salinity the hermit crabs could withstand if I put them back in the main tank as they are starting to fight and what I should be feeding the urchins and cleaner shrimps on in the hospital tank ?

Thanks again

Jab

 

[cmor1701d]

You need to get the main tank down to 1.009. Keep changing tank water for RO water over the next few days until you get down to that level. I do not know of a calculator that will help you adjust the level. I would do a 10% change and check the change in SG after a fes hours with a refractometer.

The hermits will probably die in lowered SG. You may need another bucket to separate them. You could try adding some PVC parts (elbows, 45's, etc.) to give them some hiding room.
You should also do 10% daily water changes on the invert tank, but get that SG up to the 1.022 - 1.026 range and keep it there. As for feeding the inverts, you should do some very light feedings once a day. These are your clean up crew. They normally eat what's left over from the fish feedings, etc.

I see you added an airstone to the invert tank, but I don't see a powerhead in there. Is the airstone sole means of water movement.?
Do you have any PHs in the main tank?
Is there a glass top on your main tank or is it open?

 

[jabba]

You need to get the main tank down to 1.009. Keep changing tank water for RO water over the next few days until you get down to that level. I do not know of a calculator that will help you adjust the level. I would do a 10% change and check the change in SG after a fes hours with a refractometer.

The hermits will probably die in lowered SG. You may need another bucket to separate them. You could try adding some PVC parts (elbows, 45's, etc.) to give them some hiding room.
You should also do 10% daily water changes on the invert tank, but get that SG up to the 1.022 - 1.026 range and keep it there. As for feeding the inverts, you should do some very light feedings once a day. These are your clean up crew. They normally eat what's left over from the fish feedings, etc.

I see you added an airstone to the invert tank, but I don't see a powerhead in there. Is the airstone sole means of water movement.?
Do you have any PHs in the main tank?
Is there a glass top on your main tank or is it open?

There is an internal filter in the top left hand corner of the hospital tank (it looks like a grey stingray) that provides surface flow. I dont know if this is any good or not, but the marine shop said I didnt need anything else

The ph of the main tank is about 8.3 (I only have a colour chart to try and match what the reading is)

The main tank just has a wooden lid that I close, although I could leave this open if need be.

I guess I will put the RO freshwater in then, what do you think about 1.016 down to say 1.013 - 1.012 ?

Thanks again

Jab

 

[cmor1701d]

Sorry if I confused you. I was asking if you had any power heads in the main tank for water circulation. Oxygenation of the water occurs mostly at the surface. The surface water should be agitated (think ocean surface) not still. A marine tank should have water flow of 10x - 20x water capacity per hour. In your main tank the output of all water pumps and power heads should be at least 1500 UK gallons /hour. When you decide to add corals you will probably want to increase that.

Do you get a lot of salt creep on the underside of the wood lid?

Dropping the SG .002 - .004 per day should be fine. I shoot for a drop of .003 per day to go from 1.26 to 1.009 over the course of a week. You need to do the same in reverse after treatment, bringing the SG up slowly.

What are you using to measure the SG?

Keep a close on the pH of the main tank during hypo. There is less buffer in the water and it tends to drop quickly. I keep enough s/w mis on had to do a 10% - 20% daily water change. Of course when I did it I had all my fish in a 30 gallon tank so it was a lot easier to do the water changes. Also, the smaller volume of water allows parameters to change much quicker.