Irresponsible???

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saberry said:
We may not be not be animal rights activists, but I'm glad we're not so calloused that we disregard the quality of life for the fish altogether. :fadein:

Actually, you might be suprised how conservative I am in my politics 8)
You have however found my weak spot.......animals. In this area I am quite liberal....lol
We as hobbiests are the gate keepers. What we say goes, we just need to make our feeling known. I know it sound simple, but I have been in business for many years, I survive because I listen to my customers. Believe me, the retailers check out these posts.
 
Dosent make sense to me that every fish I and all of you have came from some guy with a net out in the ocean.

I've read that as much as 90% of SW livestock is harvested from the wild. FWIW, someone recently posted a pic in a thread on this site of an sps "super tank", like 200 gal, private owner, w/ a school of idols gliding through the bottom of the pic. Apparently some w/ enough lr, etc. are able to keep them.
 
saberry said:
quarryshark said:
Actually, you might be suprised how conservative I am in my politics

Bush/Giuliani 2004 :D

Yes, I said, Giuliani. I don't think Cheney is electible as pres in 2008 and I want another 8 years. :wink:

Hmmm, interesting. I do like Cheney, I hope his health holds. Rudy's divorce would hurt him IMO.
GW better win, this war on terrorism is too important.
 
Yes, I said, Giuliani. I don't think Cheney is electible as pres in 2008 and I want another 8 years.
all I can say is wow... Brings into mind -"you should never talk politics in a bar" or apparently a fish forum :wink:
 
I agree on the stat above, most saltwater fish are caught from the wild, but definitely not from one guy. these fish are caught from all over the world. Hopefully someday more people will figure out how to breed saltwater fish and coral and more of these animals be able to stay in the wild. I myself am trying to contribute to that.

Some fish like idols can have the best water quality possible and eat regularly but still perish. I think it is more of a space issue than anything. Some fish just need a lot of room to swim and wont stand for a small space. you think you can keep a yellow tail in even a 500 gal aquarium?
 
divemasterjim said:
I just cant stand when someone gets out there soap box.
You do understand the concept of a forum don't you? :lol:
 
I don't mind eating them, but we arnt cavemen anymore, we dont need fur to keep us warm!
 
My fish are my pets, I feel for them like one does for a dog or a cat. Actually since I started diving 8 years ago and later my aquarium, I stopped eating seafood all together....but.
Not everyone feel this way and there isn't much one can do. Fish are certainly ornemental to many. face it, how many of you have cleaner shrimp as pets, but still chow down on them at Red Lobster? Nothing wrong with this, just our difference of opinions.
This is how operations survive that sell questionable livestock. Either people don't care, or are quicky discouraged (like I almost was) when something fails. either way, they still make money.
where we need to stick together is in education of new hobbiests. This is where we can make a difference.
 
I agree with you totally quarryshark, but i don't think cleaner shrimp are served for dinner :?
 
A few years ago 101 dalmations came out again. and many pet stores were selling dalmation pups. Dalmations are high strung and not really good with kids, (for the most part I know there are exceptions) but everyone was selling them. Should we also boycot them?
fisherman were collecting tuna and dolphins were killed in the process, when there was an uproar from the public, collection methods changed.
You do not live in a perfect world. It will never be perfect. If we decided to boycott every place that couldnt prove it didnt sell cyanide caught fish, (another environmental issue) none of us would have any. We do what we can where we can.
If you feel that strongly about it, write them a note.
This is the best way. If everyone doesn't know about it then nothing will change.
 
Good topic saberry. I am totally against buying animals that have a 99% chance of not making past two months. I noticed liveaquaria.com also sells them. I do not think it is possible to boycot a busienss completely. Education is the answer. If we can decrease demand for these fish, collection will go down. It is reverse supply and demand. I like the referance to 101 Dalmations. Finding Nemo did the same thing. it was great exposure to the saltwater aquarium world, but I fear it sent many,many,many Nemos and Doris to their deaths. Very sad.
 
IMO, saberry has done exactly what they should have. It's a subject that means something to you. It meant enough that you wanted to say something and you did so in a mature way and in a way to encourage debate. Debate is healthy and this is the place for it. I would also agree that writing the retailer that supplies the fish would also be worth it. Perhaps (and this is all too often the case) the seller, LFS or online retailer may simply not know. If your letter to the seller is mature and straight forward, simply informational. You may affect their practices. Best case scenario, they stop selling them, worst case scenario, nothing happens. But you can probably hope for at least additional informaiton to be included with the fish's description. :D


as for the politics... OMG! Don't get me started! (too late... MONKEY FOR PRESIDENT!!) :D
 
I think there is an aspect of this that has been over looked. I took the time to read (mostly) the previous post, so I dont think this has been mentioned...Experience level. We have a wide range of experience on this board and one or two others (that are very good as well.) I have been in the hobby for over 10 years...much of my knowledge has been gained since I joined forums like this several years ago. Despite that, I still would not feel confident about purchasing an Idol (especially on line) without a large amount of research. However, I do know several people that I feel have more than enough experience to try keeping one. So whats my point....On a scale of one to ten... (one being "damsel" and 10 being "idol") ...If I am at an experience level 8 and capable of keeping an octopus, I dont want my only options to be things like Green Chromis and 4 stripe damsels.

That being said...Leave these beautiful creatures where they belong. In the ocean. Very very few of us have the experience, time, money, or set up to be able to keep something that delicate. It should be something that can be aquired, but not easily.

The only other comment I have is to Jim (dive master). Everyone else is keeping it civil and friendly. Is there anything we can do to help you do the same?
 
Does anyone think it is irresponsible to sell Moorish Idols over the internet as this site does?
Yes (see more on this below).
I think to say these are difficult to keep is a major understatement.
That's the problem here. Acroporas are often labeled as "difficult", but how many are kept successfully? Hundreds of thousands. Idols are not difficult to keep, they are virtually impossible. They require a continual supply of live sponges and algae, and must have an aquarium of 500g+ (length being most important) to even have a chance to survive at all.
Im guessing but probably not correct wouldnt most be tank raised?
They are not tank raised. The vast majority of marine fish are wild-caught.
they dont all die lots of people do ok with them
I've never heard of one surviving in captivity for more than a year. I would love to see a tank that housed them successfully for more than a year. Approx. 95% of captive Moorish Idols perish within 2-4 months.

Perhaps the only way someone will ever discover the secret is if they are freely available to all.

I do agree with this to an extent. Having been in the reef-keeping hobby for 14+ years, I see many marine specimens kept now which were thought 100% impossible a short 10 years ago. IMO, the (responsible) hobbyist contributes greatly (yes, contributes) to the coral reefs of the world. We make the reefs *visible* (out of sight, out of mind), and appreciated. We have also realized many great gains - coral fragging, tridacnid clam captive reproduction, and captive breeding of marine fish - are all a direct result of our hobby.

This is, however, a 2-part responsibility. Aquarists need to research, research, research. LFS's and e-tailers should provide complete information on care & requirements. "Difficult" is not adequate. If they had written "Extremely difficult, requires 500+ gallon tank, and continual supply of live foods -- even given these conditions, this fish does not often survive in captivity. Please research fully before purchasing!" - then I would not be entirely opposed to their sale. IMO, they are being unethical by intentionally omitting information.
From what I understand, a lot of LFS (At least the ones by me) and online vendors don't even pick out the livestock that they receive. They have a supplier that ships them livestock and a list of whats in it and they get what they get.
I am friends with a few LFS owners, and couple online vendors of marine fish/corals. They all tell me that this is almost completely untrue, unless there is some confusion in the ordering - but that this happens very rarely. A couple have told me that this is the "line" usually handed out to people when they question why a certain fish, coral, etc. is being offered for sale.
by the way and just for the record I hate animal rights activist those people need to get a clue
And that clue would be?
A few years ago 101 dalmations came out again. and many pet stores were selling dalmation pups. Dalmations are high strung and not really good with kids, (for the most part I know there are exceptions) but everyone was selling them. Should we also boycot them?
If they were not properly and completely educating the buyer as to the breed's care needs and dispostion, then, IMO, yes.
If you feel that strongly about it, write them a note.
IMO, this is the best thing you can do. 10 letters will have far more impact than 10 people not buying from that store.
 
I have also read anenomes have 1/20-1/80th the lifespan in captivity compared to the wild. But a lot of people keep anenomes anyways.

And if we are being serious about the "keep em in the ocean" then that would also include a lot of fish people here keep, including many butterflies and angelfish:

http://www.aquariumpros.com/articles/badfishlist.shtml

And of course everyone has different views on what fish should be kept or not.
 
Does anyone think there's any validity in the argument that if we really care, we shouldn't keep any animals in captivity at all?
 
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