Is This Ick on my Dogface Puffer - Using Coppersafe - Pictures Inside

[rx330]

My friend said this was ick on my dogface puffer, so I moved him into a QT an hour ago, and added 1/2 recommended dosage of coppersafe (since the puffer is more sensitive to copper).

• Does this look like ich to you ?
• How long do I keep the fish inside this tank with the 1/2 dose of coppersafe already applied ?
• Temp is 79 and salinity is 1.020

Also, the puffer tucked one of his side fins inside his gill before, and then pulled it back out, so Im thinking whatever this is, is bothering him.

 

[SeverumGuy]

Looks like ick to me. If that's the case. It's too early to kill it. The temp is fine at 79. When the spots start really going away is the time to treat it. When you stop seeing all the spots that means that it is free floating and is vulnerable to treatment.

 

[Krypt]

Puffers can be a pain when it comes to ich treatment. As you said, they don't play with copper to nicely. In my experience, best treatment for them is hyposalinity. I am currently doing a 4 week hypo stint on my brothers porcupine puffer (had it so bad I had to do a FW dip and prayed he would survive). I'm in week 2 of treatment and all the spots are gone and he's swimming around and eating fine again. May want to give that a try in the future if he ever gets ich again.

 

[rx330]

we tried a few times giving him a freshwater dip, having him in it for 5 - 7 minute episodes. did this 3 times and didnt notice any changes.

i hear from the pros that the coppersafe works, just use less of the normal dosage for puffers due to their high sensitivity.

he is out of my 54g DT and now into my 29g QT, with coppersafe dosage already added into tank. i hope nothing happens with the 5 other Fish in my DT, which is being treated with organic ich attack.

 

[Krypt]

The FW dip is just to get some of the mature ich to fall off in very bad infestations. In order to see results, a treatment of hypo after the dip is needed.

How often are you doing water changes on the QT tank? Treating with copper kills the beneficial bacteria that is needed for the nitrogen cycle so you need to watch your amm/nitrite levels while using copper.

Here is a link to an article you should read about ich. Alot of good info and will include several tips on treatments.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

 

[cmor1701d]

Do have any filtration in the QT?
Are you monitoring for Ammonia?
You need to keep stable water parameters in QT, well actually you need to keep pristine water conditions in a hospital tank.
IMO that means daily 10% water changes at a minimum, with 20% being better.
That makes the copper treatment much harder which is why I only recommend Hyposaliniy as treatment for ICH!

As covered as that puffer is I would say you have Ich in the DT. The only way to eliminate it is to put all fish in QT and treat wil Hypo for 6 weeks while the main tank has no fish for that period of time. That is the life cycle of the parasite, so it will die off in the DT without any fish while you are curing the fish in the QT.
Here's how you do it:
Hyposalinity

ICH articles
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm

BTH, you now have copper in the QT so forget about using it as QT for any inverts,

 

[rx330]

The white spots are now off my fish, but he is on the bottom breathing a little heavy. Now that a 1/2 dose of Coppersafe was added yesterday, when do i do water changes, how much per change, please advise.

QT is 29g and was first setup yesterday, meaning that the tank never had a chance to cycle first (but I used 10g of water from my DT and a sponge that had some beneficial bacteria on it, and inserted it into the QT)

Do I soak his food in garlic to boost immune system ?

 

[Krypt]

Since you added the copper, that makes the sponge you put in pretty much useless (copper kills all the bacteria present for the nitrogen cycle). Chances are he's breathing heavy because the ammonia levels are sky rocketing without the bacteria to break them down.I'd do a water change ASAP!

In order to maintain the correct copper levels, you have to mathematically figure out how much to add back to the tank after you remove and refill the water. For example, say you originally dosed 10ml of copper "stuff". If you remove 50% of the aquarium water and refill it, you'd have to add 5ml more copper to maintain the needed amount.

EDIT: As for the amount of water to change, take a reading of your amm/nitrite. If it is really high, do a major one (50% or greater) and you also may want to look into getting some Prime to neutralize the toxicity of the amm/nitrites.

 

[rx330]

I did the water change, about 5 gallons and that should remove some of the ammonia. I will do another later tonight, prob another 5 gallons. The spots came back, is that normal? i thought once they fall of, they go to the bottom and start to die? I have no substrate in thier at all, should I add something (rinsed sand), not the agragonite as it will be killed by the copper? I also added a powerhead today to create more surface tenion and to further areate the water. I hope i don't lose him, he is a pretty cool little guy. We have become attached in the 6 weeks we have him.

Also, if i had nothing new to my tank for 6 weeks, how did the ICK get into the tank? I thought it had to come in on a fish? And the puffer wasn't/shouldn't have been stressed. Water in the DT was in good shape, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrate, 0 nitrate, salinity at 1.020, ph at 8.0-8.2

 

[mrg02d]

I did the water change, about 5 gallons and that should remove some of the ammonia. I will do another later tonight, prob another 5 gallons. The spots came back, is that normal? i thought once they fall of, they go to the bottom and start to die? I have no substrate in thier at all, should I add something (rinsed sand), not the agragonite as it will be killed by the copper? I also added a powerhead today to create more surface tenion and to further areate the water. I hope i don't lose him, he is a pretty cool little guy. We have become attached in the 6 weeks we have him.

Also, if i had nothing new to my tank for 6 weeks, how did the ICK get into the tank? I thought it had to come in on a fish? And the puffer wasn't/shouldn't have been stressed. Water in the DT was in good shape, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrate, 0 nitrate, salinity at 1.020, ph at 8.0-8.2

Ick is a nasty lil critter. The copper treatment likely failed since you are dosing half the reccomended dose. Id say its time for hyposalinity, but you need to stop dosing the copper altogether. You will need a GOOD refractometer and a LOT of patience to do hypo.

The ICK likely was there all along waiting for a chance to attack. A lot of fish come down with it for many reasons. Thats why some people choose to pre-treat fish during QT before adding to the DT. Chemicals are nasty, but so are parasites!

Good luck, Ill be praying for ya!

Matt

 

[rx330]

We changed the puffer into yet a 2nd QT tank, and are starting hypo. He is not looking good, although the spots seem to be less, he is breathing heavier and not moving really or eating. I took about 8gal from my DT and the rest was freshwater. So, we are starting the hypo...I hope he makes it. Does this sound normal in this case? Also, should I add the Ick-Attack to the hypo QT tank or leave it alone? I am at a complete loss here...The fish I got from the LFS in the DT look and ack fine, the puffer, which I got from a friend is the only one showing signs of sickness...

Any further thoughts greatly appreciated.

thank you

 

[cmor1701d]

Do NOT add anythinig to the QT tank. Just do the PWC's to get the SG down to 1.009 and keep it there for 4 weeks (minimim).

The first few week you need to keep an eye on the water parameters. Unless you moved some biological filter from the DT tank to the QT you are in effect cycling the tank with the puffer. You need to do 2x/day, 20% water changes to maintain parameters. The fish is sick and needs pristine water to help it fight.

Did you read the articles?

Then you know that the only way to be Ich free in the future is to remove all fish from the DT for 4 - 6 weeks and QT all of them. I would just treat them all with Hypo to make sure.

Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress.

 

[cmor1701d]

When doinig the PWC's siphon the bottom glass. That will help remove any detritus as well as any protomont and tomonts on the bottom.

BTW, I keep a biowheel in my sump for use in my QT tank. That way I always have a bit of a biological filter if I buy something new.
I only had Ich once, but getting all of the fish out of a 125 with almost 200 pounds of LR is a major pain.

 

[rx330]

the puffer is in the 2nd QT tank (14g) and I put 10g of the water with perfect levels from the DT, into the QT. I added another 2g of new saltwater to the mix.

puffer is now on the glass bottom, breathing heavy and not doing much moving. he has no appetite and appears to be struggling. he was taken out of the 1st QT tank which had coppersafe, dipped into FW for about 5 minutes, then added to this 2nd tank with good established water.

he still has white spots on him, and now there are no meds in the 2nd tank. how fast can i bring down the salinity, as i dont think the puffer is going to make it until tomorrow morning ? salinity is now 1.020

 

[mrg02d]

Dont drop the salinity quickly as it will harm the fish. I believe people take at least a week dropping down to the right spot. A little each day or so. I know its hard to have faith, but at this point its all you got. A sudden change in salinity could do him in altogether. If you are at 1.020 right now, drop it to 1.018 or so. Continue each day (every 24 hours) until you are at 1.009.
Maybe someone here can chime in on how fast it can be done in an emergency situation?
Matt

 

[Krypt]

The salinity can be dropped over 36-48 hours. Drop it .002 every 4-6 hours til you hit .009. Make sure you whip up a batch of fresh SW at 1.009 for the twice daily 20% water changes, your going to need it. Good luck!

After the 4 week treatment, you can NOT raise the SG back to normal in 36-48 hours though, takes like a week.

 

[cmor1701d]

I would start dooing 10% PWC with NEW sw mixed to 1.009 twice a day.
Have you tested for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in the QT?
What about pH? All are hard to maintain in lower SG.

You need to keep doing small PWC's (10%) to keep the water in prisitne conditions for the puffer.

 

[boxfishlover]

Can anyone provide me documentation that copper kills bacteria? I was told by my LFS that copper only kills parasites not bacteria.

 

[rx330]

The puffer died this morning. Absolutely disheartening. I appreciate the advice and will know to detect earlier on, treat immediately, and go with hyposalinity treatment over copper.

Now that I drained the 29g QT, I want to make it into a DT, what is the best way to go about getting the traces of copper out of the tank, and the copper off of its filter and heater, as those will be used again for a DT tank over a QT?

 

[mrg02d]

The puffer died this morning. Absolutely disheartening. I appreciate the advice and will know to detect earlier on, treat immediately, and go with hyposalinity treatment over copper.

Now that I drained the 29g QT, I want to make it into a DT, what is the best way to go about getting the traces of copper out of the tank, and the copper off of its filter and heater, as those will be used again for a DT tank over a QT?

Very sorry to hear that. :-( Its always hard to see an animal get sick and die while being treated...

Any tank that has had copper in it is a risk for any future inverts and bacteria. You really shouldnt use that QT for a DT now that its been contaminated. Copper absorbs into the tank and will leach back out and kill.

If you must use it, I would constantly be running something like CupriSorb and testing for copper...
Matt