Marine Ich. Freaking out! help!

[NicoleIsStoked]

UGH. this whole project has been more trouble then its worth. well for anyone who wasnt following my just getting started thread, heres a short recap:

began setting up my first saltwater tank in late sept-early oct. 50gal FOWLR. cycled for 4 weeks with a table shrimp. when ammonia and nitrite finally reached 0 i added the following:
4 baby hermit crabs and 2 ocell clownfish (captive bred)
1 week later i added 1 foxface lo and 2 fire shrimp
2 or three weeks later i added 1 bicolor angelfish, 2 tactus snails, and 2 trochus snails.
everyone was doing great. no deaths, no nothing. so far so good.
bicolor wasnt eating when she came home and after a big head ache, she began eating flakes after 6 days. 1 snail died earlier this week. i think he fell and couldnt get up lol. poor guy. otherwise everything was ace.

tonight i noticed 1 ich spot on the fin of my bicolor angelfish. i'm super upset. shes eating and acting totally normal, but i see it there. i now just also found 1 spot on my fox face. he's also eating and swimming normal. from what i can see the clowns are fine so far.
well i'm super stressed. i've never dealt with marine ich before and the more i read, the more flustered i get. i do not quarantine fish, nor do i have a hospital tank.

i've dosed the tank with a bit of mashed fresh garlic tonight but have read varying things about that. i guess it cant hurt to try though. i hope.
i've read about moving the fish to a hospital tank and treating with hypo-sailinity, but thats far less than ideal for me. the only empty tank i have access to is a 20 gal high. would that be big enough for the 4 fish? the clowns are prob 1.5" each, the angelfish is about 2.5" and the foxface is maybe 4". i'm worried that such a small tank may stress them out worse. i also dont feel skilled enough to mess around with hypo-salinity. i dont even know physically where i'd set up this tank. i dont have furniture strong enough to hold 200lbs of water. i would like to avoid this at all costs, but want to save my fish.
is there anything i can safely (and effectively) dose into the display tank to hopefully cure this? right now its thankfully very mild so i'd like to jump on this immediately. does anyone have any experience with this product? Kordon® Ich-Attack® 100% Natural Ich Treatment - Freshwater - Water Care - PetSmart
i'm freaking out right now. i've put so much effort and money into this project over the last few months and i'll be devastated if it ends in disaster.
if i was to have to go the quarantine route, how do i handle the fact that i dont have a cycled tank ready?

here i've answered the stickied question to provide as much info as possible.

1. How long have you had the fish? Do you know if it was wild caught, or tank raised?
first fish was added mid october. last one 2 weeks ago. foxface and angelfish are wild caught, clownfish are tank bred.
2. How long has the fish been in the tank? What are the tank mates? Any aggression? no aggression. foxface has been there a month+. angelfish 2 weeks.
3. Is the fish eating? If so what does it eat? eating well. omega one marine flakes with garlic.
4. What are the water parameters? pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, SPG? (actual numbers please: posting high, average or normal is not helpful) What saltwater test kit are you using? i dont have a test kit at home (i know, i know.) i work at a petstore so i use their tests haha. can get params tomorrow afternoon. they use tetra test strips. i know they're cruddy but its better than nothing. SG is 1.025
5. Is the fish showing any physical signs of disease, grain of salt size spots, discoloration, ragged fins, misting or spots on the fins, cuts, cloudy eyes, etc? one salt-looking spot
6. Is the fish "flashing" (scratching or rubbing on rocks, decorations or substrate)? no
7. How is the fish acting? Is it swimming around, or just hovering in one spot or corner of the tank? swimming normally. healthy appetite.
8. Did you use quarantine? If so for how long and did you have a need to treat for any ailments? Is it in qt now? Are you currently treating with any medication(s)? did not quarantine. did not treat with any medications. only fresh garlic.
9. Describe in detail how the fish was acclimated. floated the bag for 15 mins, then drip acclimated in a bucket for 45mins-1hr
10. What size system? What type of filtration do you use? Do you have any live rock or sand? 50gal long (4ft tank). 2 aquaclear 110's and a circ pump (dont know the model) all rock was dry except 1 piece live. and dried out live sand.
11. Do you use any additives? Have you used any sort of meds in the main tank? nope.

please help me guys. thank you in advance!!! i could never repay everyone here for all the help you guys have given me. thank you, thank you, thank you.
nicole

[Beengirl]

I will preface this by saying that I've never treated ich.
That being said, from what I hear, hypo and copper are the only known absolute cures. If it were me, this is what I would do:

Set up to 20g anywhere you can fit it. It's not gonna be there forever, just a little while.
Use one of the ac110's that you already have and has BB in it on the 20g. That'll solve your problem of the QT not being cycled.
This parts gonna suck cuz you may have to take your rockwork apart, but Move the fish to the 20--It's not an ideal size tank, but it'll do for short term.
Treat with copper- Don't forget to take any carbon out of your filter.
Don't need sand or rocks in the QT. if you want to sacrifice one of your LR to add more BB to the QT, you can do that, but don't put that rock back in the DT when this is done.
The DT will need to be fish less for 6-8 weeks.

Sorry-I know that sucks.
Hope your fish get better.

[tonedogz]

Hey Nicole sorry about your problem. Use cupramine for the treatment its by seachem and it is very effective against ick. Its not as hard on the fish as other forms of copper but works great just follow the directions. Also you'll need a test kit that tests for ionic or free copper an api kit will work or seachems. Good luck

[Crystal A]

Are we sure it is ick. One spot on two fish isn't a total conformation yet in my eyes. Both seem to be happy and heathy. I would monitor for a few days see if it gets worse and this will allow you to set up the qt and let it level out for a few days. Do agree with beengirl as far as the treatments she suggested. I have never had to do it either but I can only imagine it will be a "pita" to try and catch all the fish and then qt them. Good luck and keep us posted.

[NicoleIsStoked]

I'm 95% sure it's ich. I've dealt with freshwater ich before and it looks just like this. From all I was reading up I was planning on doing hypo but is there a reason everyone here is saying to use copper? Is that better for some reason?
Here's the problem. If I hang one of my filters on the QT tank and then treat with cupramine won't my filter now be tainted and unable to be returned to my dt?

[Flaxon-Waxon]

Originally Posted by NicoleIsStoked

I'm 95% sure it's ich. I've dealt with freshwater ich before and it looks just like this. From all I was reading up I was planning on doing hypo but is there a reason everyone here is saying to use copper? Is that better for some reason?
Here's the problem. If I hang one of my filters on the QT tank and then treat with cupramine won't my filter now be tainted and unable to be returned to my dt?

Do hypo if you can. It's less stressful for the fish. It is very demanding as the salinity must remain at 1.009 and you will NEED a refractometer. Keep up with maintaining a constant water level and check your ammonia levels. Your DT will need to run fallow for 7-8 weeks to make sure the ich is eradicated...

[tonedogz]

In my opinion copper is easier and cheaper because to do hypo you need a refractometer which is a little costly but hypo is less stressful but I also think it is harder to maintain the salinity at 1.009. You can use your filter just redo the floss and carbon or whatever you have in there. All the copper can also be remove by using cuprisorb for about 2 to 3 weeks so nothing even rock wouldn't be tainted.

[Beengirl]

I suggested copper over hypo only because I've read that maintaining the proper specific gravity to kill the ich can be difficult. The filter itself should be fine after you use it, I would clean it well with some vinegar and change out the sponge, etc inside it. It won't take long for the new sponge to be re-seeded with BB after you put it Back on the DT.

[Flaxon-Waxon]

I wasn't saying NOT to do copper, they're actually both a pain in the butt lol... With copper, you still need to keep an eye on levels using a copper test, with hypo you need to keep an eye on salinity. Hypo in itself does less physical damage and stress to the fish, but I agree is difficult. I was just stating my opinion, and I'm glad other people chimed in too, because that's how we learn to become better aquarists.

[tonedogz]

Originally Posted by Benamayer

I wasn't saying NOT to do copper, they're actually both a pain in the butt lol... With copper, you still need to keep an eye on levels using a copper test, with hypo you need to keep an eye on salinity. Hypo in itself does less physical damage and stress to the fish, but I agree is difficult. I was just stating my opinion, and I'm glad other people chimed in too, because that's how we learn to become better aquarists.

I don't think anyone was questioning your opinion it was solid advice.

[Flaxon-Waxon]

I know lol... They're both effective ways, and both have pros and cons.

[NicoleIsStoked]

Ok so after reading into hypo in greater detail I no longer feel capable of pulling it off. Between the salinity and the ph it's too much. Way over my head. I'm running an ac110 with the sponges and bio balls so if I used copper would I have to replace all the media or could I just soak it all in boiling water and vinegar to remove the copper?
The other options I'm considering are Kordon Rid Ich Plus. It says its safe for saltwater fish, just not inverts. So I'd still have to use a QT. but it would be less complicated than cupramine. The active ingredients are formaldehyde and malachite green. Thoughts?
I also have access to Kordon 100% natural Ich Attack. It boasts that it's reef safe and can be used in DTs with inverts. I know the chances of it working well are slim, but could it do any harm to try? Because that would be a million times more convenient.

[melosu58]

Read these

An Ounce of Prevention is Worth a Pound of Cure: A Quarantine Tank for Everything by Steven Pro

Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro

Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part II by Steven Pro

[tonedogz]

personally I would only use cupramine, I've used it many times and its very effective. If the other stuff doesn't work you risk losing some fish.

[Beengirl]

Originally Posted by Benamayer

I wasn't saying NOT to do copper, they're actually both a pain in the butt lol... With copper, you still need to keep an eye on levels using a copper test, with hypo you need to keep an eye on salinity. Hypo in itself does less physical damage and stress to the fish, but I agree is difficult. I was just stating my opinion, and I'm glad other people chimed in too, because that's how we learn to become better aquarists.

Oh, I wasn't saying that your suggestion was bad, she was just asking why a couple of us suggested copper over hypo; so I was saying why I suggested it. Hypo works too.

[Flaxon-Waxon]

Originally Posted by Beengirl

Oh, I wasn't saying that your suggestion was bad, she was just asking why a couple of us suggested copper over hypo; so I was saying why I suggested it. Hypo works too.

I know.. Sorry for any miscommunication, I was certainly not trying to come across as defensive or abrasive 8-( I'm glad we were all able to give the OP some good suggestions, which is why we are here!

[NicoleIsStoked]

Ok. One more big problem. I think cupramine is the way to go, but I don't use rodi (I know, I know). I use tap water treated with prime. So I can't add cupramine. Fml. Helppppp.

[tonedogz]

I believe the prime only stays in the water for 24 to 48 hours then it dissipates you can email seachem to make sure they're pretty good at getting back on questions

[NicoleIsStoked]

Originally Posted by tonedogz

I believe the prime only stays in the water for 24 to 48 hours then it dissipates you can email seachem to make sure they're pretty good at getting back on questions

can anyone confirm/deny this? or supply a link? no offence tonedogz, just want a second reassurance.

[tonedogz]

not a problem thats why other people are hear