Marine Velvet????

[karlseith]

My Naso Tang is sick...again... He had pop eye 1 month ago that I cured and he fully recovered from. Now he has what I believe to be velvet. 1 week ago I saw what looked like early signs of ich but that disappeared. Yesterday he was breathing heavily and had irregular brown marks on his face. This morning he had the same brown marks, thin cottony film hanging from his fins and was breathing very hard. Tonight the film is covering his body and he is breathing extremely fast. I treated the tank with copper safe this morning but it doesn't appear to have helped him. Is this velvet? Is there anything else I can do?? Also could this and the popeye be a result of the frozen brine/mysis/formula2 I have been feeding?
Thanks,
Karl

[austinsdad]

Velvet kills very fast if it is that. Looks like a powder sugar coating IMO, usually seen very easily on the pec fins among other places. Any other fish in the tank and showing signs of infection? Google on it. There are plenty of pictures and info on the net.

When I had an outbreak, it killed 9 fish in 2 weeks. Mine was a result of fluctuating water (salinity, nitrates) in a new tank with fish added entirely too fast. IMO, that food didn't have anything to do with the outbreak, but in the future you might add garlic and zoe (vitamins)to your food mixtures to help your fish build stronger immunities.

[melosu58]

Did you add the copper safe to your main tank?

[karlseith]

The tank is a fish only so I went ahead and added the copper, more as a preventative for the other fish than anything else, even though they are not showing any signs of illness. The tang is alive this morning but not looking well at all. I was going to give him a formalin bath today hoping that would provide some relief but the lfs is closed on tues(????). I tried googling powder sugar coating with a combo of added words like sickness and fish but couldn't find anything but cookbooks. Is there a scientific name for it?

Thanks,
Karl

[austinsdad]

Google on marine velvet. Or try this...

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/20...ture/index.php

How large is this tank, what other fish are in the tank, what type of copper are you using, how much copper was added, did you test the copper level and any substrate or rock?

FWIW, I would not recommend formalin for velvet, it's not very effective. Copper is the best remedy that hobbyists have the easiest access to. If anything a pH/temp adjusted FW dip might ease the gill infestation if it's not breathing well. You need to be very very careful here though, FW dips in an already ailing fish can cause more problems than it solves, including death.

I would at the very least be aware of where you can get the formalin though, you might not be dealing with what you think.

Cheers
Steve

[karlseith]

The tank is a 72 bowfront with about 15 pounds of live rock and 80 pounds of reef sand. There is a juvenile coris(SP) wrasse, 1" blue hippo tang, 4" marine betta, and a small pair of clowns in the tank. I have a small fluval canister and a 20g sump/refugium filtering it. I gave the naso a FW bath 2 days ago and brown sandy stuff collected on the bottom of the bucket. He looked much better after that for about 20 mins and then all the symptoms came back. I figured he would be way to stressed for another bath. He finally died this afternoon. I was planning on doing a large water change tonight, should i try to maintain levels of copper in the tank for preventative measures or not even worry about it at this point?

Originally Posted by karlseith

The tank is a 72 bowfront with about 15 pounds of live rock and 80 pounds of reef sand. There is a juvenile coris(SP) wrasse, 1" blue hippo tang, 4" marine betta, and a small pair of clowns in the tank. I have a small fluval canister and a 20g sump/refugium filtering it.

This is actually the worst way to administer copper. CaCO3 materials will sorb copper compounds making it hard to maintain.

You did not answer these questions....

Originally Posted by steve-s

what type of copper are you using, how much copper was added, did you test the copper level

I gave the naso a FW bath 2 days ago and brown sandy stuff collected on the bottom of the bucket.

This is definately a good indication of velvet.

He looked much better after that for about 20 mins and then all the symptoms came back. I figured he would be way to stressed for another bath. He finally died this afternoon. I was planning on doing a large water change tonight, should i try to maintain levels of copper in the tank for preventative measures or not even worry about it at this point?

Sorry for your loss. Unfortunately if velvet, it will not simpley go away. You must continue to treat the remaining fish or they will succumb as well.

Is there no way you can set up a makeshift QT and administer the copper more effectvely?

Cheers
Steve

[karlseith]

I used Mardels coppersafe. The recomened dosage is 1 teaspons per 4 gallons, so I dosed 20.5 teaspons to account for sand live rock and equipment . I tested it last night before i did a 10g water change and it was only 1ppm. Would that level have any affect? My clowns are now showing signs of infection. I will run out and get a 10g tonight for a QT. Can I put all of those fish in there at the same time? I was thinking of keeping the copper at 2.0ppm is that to high?

Originally Posted by karlseith

I tested it last night before i did a 10g water change and it was only 1ppm.

Make sure you redose when doing water changes, every 10 gal water change (on the main tank) is a 14% reduction in the copper level. I realize it was tested before the water chnage, just want to make you aware.

Would that level have any affect? My clowns are now showing signs of infection. I will run out and get a 10g tonight for a QT. Can I put all of those fish in there at the same time? I was thinking of keeping the copper at 2.0ppm is that to high?

A 10 gal is far too small for these fish and you would also need to have something provided for the coris wrasse. This wrasse will only bed under the sand and will be a serious source of stress if something is not made available. Check for silica sand at the hardware store, you can place it in a plastic bowl within the QT and it will not hamper the copper concentration.

Is there any chance you could get a 20 gal long? It would be alot better for the fish and easier on you.

I would keep the copper level as close to 1.5 ppm as possible. 1.0 is too low and do not let it get above 2.0. I would try for somewhere in the middle of 1.5-2.0 ppm. How high does the kit register?

Cheers
Steve

[karlseith]

I put the clowns and tang in a 10g last night using a canaster filter from the main tank for filtration. The copper level set somewhere between 1.5 and 2. The test kit measures up to 4. The wrasse and betta are still in the display tank. They do not appear to be showing signs of infection yet. I will probably finish treating the clowns and tang, then move them to another tank, then treat the wrasse and betta. How long should the main display tank remain void of fish before it is safe to restock?

[austinsdad]

Yep. Gotte get those others out too.

8 weeks fishless is the recommendation I hear most 'round here.

[karlseith]

8 weeks. Wow, thats longer than I thought. Ok, last question, how long do I need to keep the fish in the copper treated QT tank?

The fish need to remain in the copper at the correct concentration for 2 full weeks. After that you can remove the copper but the fish cannot go back into the main until at least 8 weeks past the last fish being removed.

Don't wait 2 weeks to remove the the remaining fish either. Velvet will kill quite quickly as the lifecycle advances and the dinospore density increases. Each cyst will release 256 dinospores.

Cheers
Steve

[karlseith]

OK, thank you very much for all your help. The clowns and tang all look MUCH better since i put them in the QT. I will go get another QT this weekend for the wrasse and betta. Thanks again for all your help! I really thought I was going to lose all my fish.

[austinsdad]

BTW, where are you in MD?

[karlseith]

Used to be in Sandy Spring/Olney area. I just recently moved to Leesburg, VA.