Sick flame angel

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bpeitzke

Aquarium Advice Activist
Joined
May 30, 2003
Messages
149
Location
Pacific Palisades, CA, USA
We have a lovely flame angel that we got last weekend. Now its left eye is cloudy and fins are ragged, and it's started swimming erratically. Other fish are fine, though the yellow tang seems a paler yellow.

Salinity is ~ 1.023; ammonia & nitrites nil; ph looks ~ 8.2. 36 Gal FOWLR

Suggestions?
 
Give the angel a FW dip for at least three minutes but no more than five. Make sure the temp is close to the tank temp and of course dechlorinate it first. Use RO water if you can.

While the angel is in the freshwater, watch to see if anything falls off, particularly if it is opaque white and round. If you have a hospital tank, put the angel in it.

What other fish live in there with the angel? The ragged fins may suggest the angel is getting picked on.

Some info. on this parasite...

There is a particular external parasite that is known to be problematic for the fact it cannot be killed with medications...not even copper can touch it. The only way to kill them off the fish is to dip the fish in freshwater. I'm still looking for the name of this parasite, but I do know it's a trematode of sorts. The parasite is natural to the lumberjack fish Japanese fisheries harvest. When these fishermen started trekking these fish around the world, they spread their parasite too and now the parasite is found in almost all the oceans.

It is nearly impossible to see these parasites. They are transparent and round. When exposed to FW, they turn opaque and fall off the fish. A cloudy eye can suggest these parasites may be present. It's the only place on the body of the fish they show up.

Angels are one of the fish that are common to have these parasites. Many fish are so it's a good idea to dip most new fish before purchasing if possible. Some fish should not be FW dipped like wrasses and small gobies. Tangs, angels, butterflies, damsels, triggers, puffers, lions, groupers, anthias, etc are all OK to dip. Even eels, but not right after they eat.

If you see these parasites are present, then I would suggest to treat the angel with an antiseptic and Formalin. Aquarium Pharmeceuticals use to have Wound Control. They might not have it on the market anymore. I don't know if they had substituted it with another product. It went on the fish directly instead of in the tank. Good antiseptic.

You will want to dip the angel again. These parasites are monogentic which means they do not need a second host to complete their life cycle and breed right on the fish.

Let me know how the dip turns out...and I will warn you now...some people may not condone doing FW dips but it is the only way to rid these certain parasites and a positive way to confirm or deny the presence of these parasites. It's worth the stress the fish goes under for the moment. If the angel lays down just fan water over it's gills. The fish will be fine. I've dipped hundreds of fish without problems from the dip.

I notice you have a 36 gallon tank with a yellow tang. Too small of a tank for it and being that and having very close quarters with the other fish, you may want to dip them too. Again, please let us know what other fish are in there.
 
Too late for flame angel :eek:(

Sadly, we found the flame angel dead this morning. I'm afraid I asked for advice too late. But I found your advice and explanation of these parasites so thorough and valuable that I'm saving it in my growing SW fish infobase. I'm sure it will help us down the road.

I think we'll start doing the FW dip on all new fish (excluding the ones you warned about).

The tang has been thriving, and appears to coexist with the others just fine. I haven't seen any picking from the other fish, and her fins show no stress. The only concern is that she seems a bit paler lately. I know our tank is smallish for a tang, but our daughter really wanted one, and the common Yellow was the only one I could find with tank min anywhere close to ours.

Thanks again for your advice.

Regards,

Bob Peitzke
 
The ragged fins of the angel is a clear sign someone is nippy. Without knowing what fish you have in there other than the tang /I would suspect the tang doing it. They can be jerks to new fish especially in a small tank.

Here's a tidbit on tangs...even the smaller yellow species....

They are open water swimmers and require ample swimming room to satisfy their needs in captivity...or they die very prematurely. Tangs also need tons of vegetation to eat and a variety of it. Purple seaweed is good to offer. The paling color of the tang is suggesting stress. So what else do you have in there?

The tang could also be stressed from the angel especially if it did have these parasites. They will swim from fish to fish.

You are lucky enough for the tang to still be alive, but if it stays in that tank it won't be for much longer. Your daughter would be devastated to see it die...more so if she'd never gotten it in the first place.

It's all too common when parents bring their kids to the store with them to pick out fish for the tank. Many end up getting fish they know won't survive well. Most of these animals are taken out from the wild for our enjoyment. The least we can do is respect their captive needs to keep them alive and healthy for their potential life spans...not just for the moment. I am a parent too so I know what you mean (I have an 11 year old son), but it doesn't teach our kids the right thing to do if we give in to their 'begging' and tantrums. Sometimes it's best to just deal with it and avoid problems later. It would save thousands of fish per year from premature death.

Hope it all goes well.
 
More background on our tank environment

The other fish we have in this 36 gal FOWLR tank are:

- 5" speckled green puffer (voracious feeder but hasn't been seen bothering other fish)

- 3" Maroon clown

- 1.5" zebra damsel - hasn't shown any aggression to others

- 2.5" yellow tang

The angel's ragged fins looked frayed to me, not bitten. This was most evident on tail & left pec fin.

From your advice I think we need to give the tang a FW dip. Maybe the others too.

Our daughter is no child - a 28-yr-old lawyer! She is married & they have their own place now but she still considers the tank "hers". I hear you about tank minimums and fish density - you're preaching to the choir.

So family politics trump good aquarium practice (sigh). I just have to do the best I can to keep 5 fish healthy in this smallish tank. We have lots of LR & hiding places, and I really haven't seen fish bothering each other. The only one who did that was our neon damsel, who had grown & gotten more aggressive. We returned him to LFS and saw him there recently.

I've been a bit lax on the seaweed refills for the tang - working late too many nights. I'll make sure to do it every other day; hope that will help.

We check ammonia, nitrites & ph weekly, all seem fine. I check salinity 2x/week, and am keeping it between 1.022 & 1.025. Water temp ~ 82 degrees. We have a Fluval 204 (?) filter with biohab & charcoal, a protein skimmer, and two powerheads.

I'm wondering about things we can't check (don't know how to) - nitrates, dissolved metals. ... I've been using tap water for water changes, changing ~ 5 gallons every week or two. Maybe I need to do it more often? Wonder if using RO or DI water. If so I'd need a way to make it from tap water, as trips to the LFS for it are too time-consuming for my current schedule.

Appreciate any advice.

Thanks.

Bob Peitzke
 
Ragged, frayed, it's all the same. Ragged/frayed fins is a sign someone is picking on that fish. Bitten up fins look ragged and frayed. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not happening. The messed up fins is your clue and with that line of fish...could have been any one of them. Tangs are known to get nippy and I've always seen clowns face off with smaller angels. Those would be my first guess.

You may be better off not getting anything new for the tank. It's a bit crowded even without the angel. These animals are going to grow and the bigger they get, the smaller their territories and the more ferocious the fighting will be...and at that point you will see it and not just see hints of it.

You check for nitrates just as you do ammonia, nitrite and pH. Get a test kit. Your nitrates are very important to know. I wouldn't worry too much about dissolved metals. It would be better to use RO or dionized water. Basic routine water changes for a healthy tank should only need about 15% changed once every two weeks. When it's a bit crowded, do about 10% once a week. You do not want to make any big water changes on a marine tank unless medically needed.

You can purchase an RO unit and have better water for the tank and you. Tap water has some scary things in it.

http://tricitytropicals.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=805

The above is a link to a water purifying system. Check it out.

Bring the temperature down slowly to 76 degrees. 82 degrees is too warm.

LOL...you must have been cracking up reading about what I wrote about kids and their parents...but goes to show...kids never stop asking...LOL.
 
Also I may add that frayed and shortened fins and cloudy eyes could be a viral or bacterial infection. I did not see anywhere to indicate he had ich. My experience has lead me to treat cloudy eyes as an infection. Also I am not a proponent of fresh water dips. I`ve seen too many fish die from the stress of one. But of course this is IMO. For sure the tang needs to be in a bigger tank.
 
melosu58 said:
I did not see anywhere to indicate he had ich

I'm not talking about ich, so no, it was not mentioned nor indicated.

The angel's description of symptoms are identical to these parasites I am talking about. They create the infections you have mentioned. That's a primary reason why it's almost too late once these parasites are discovered to save the fish from the ailments these parasites produce.

FW dipping is the ONLY way to rid them off the fish. These parasites are worse than the shock the fish face being dipped. With the FW dip, they at least have a chance to survive. Without it, they die.

As mentioned, I don't know the name, but I do know the origin of this parasite. There was an indepth article in PetNews or some other Pet Supply wholesaler/retail mag a few years ago. I can't find the article and so can't find the name, but it is NOT ich.
 
I seriously doubt the problem here is any kind of trematode. Water quality and overcrowding are definately going to be at the top of the list. What melosu58 has touched on is moreso the right direction. Meds and/or dips are not really the solution either just yet anyway. Reducing the bioload, cleaning up the water quality and choosing proper foods for the fish you have should be the main goals.

Ammonia and nitrite should be undetectable (zero). The fact that nitrates are not even tested will be a large factor.

FWIW, FW dips can be an effective tool when used properly as well as a cure for certain external problems. If Monogenea which can be quite common in larger angels especially, the dip may be effective if that is the problem. SW Formalin baths are usually the prefered method. So far I have seen no information relayed by the original poster to support the presence of a parasite. The bottom line here is properly identifying the problem and following through with the appropriate action.

Cheers
Steve
 
The cloudy eye is a dead give away with the angel swimming erratically. Nitrate levels being high would only say these parasites can get a better foothold in the system and formalin dips are generally done in freshwater. These parasites are transparent and therefore INVISIBLE to the naked eye unless they get on the eye of the fish. Then it looks like they have a cloudy eye. The only way to know for sure whether this parasite is present or not is to dip the fish in FW to see if these things fall off the fish.

Steve...you evidently don't come across this matter very often. I work closely with wholesale marine fish. I see this almost on a daily basis and do these treatments all the time. How else would you know that your fish have these parasites? You see your fish swimming erratically. Cloudy eye...sometimes two, heavy breathing and the animal is sick. Where do you think disease come from in the first place? Most that you see in an aquarium with a fish that hasn't been in there for more than a week, are amplified of what they have when they were first caught. High nitrate would progress an existing problem and I did tell this person how to test for nitrates.

Doesn't matter if nitrates are tested or not when it comes to identifying this parasite. They can be present on the fish whether the tank water is pristine or fowl.

I'm surprised this parasite has been largely overlooked by the majority of those who are on the retail/consumer level. It certainly isn't over looked by the wholesale/retail end of it.

Steve...be open to learning something that is very important in marine fish. It's a growing problem and the only way to control it on the market is to be aware and treat appropriately. A formalin bath without freshwater will NOT kill these parasites. In fact...formalin isn't meant to kill the parasite. It's meant to treat for the diseases these parasites can leave in their hosts. It's a preventative measure for the most part. Now if you treat the disease without treating the origin of the disease...then it returns because the element creating the disease in the first place may still be present. High nitrate would amplify the problem, but doesn't mean high nitrates is the origin.
 
I think you need to be open. A cloudy eye is not always a ick problem. I have seen many cases where a viral or bacterial problem caused a cloudy eye or two. Not every fish problem is ick related. When I stated my opinion about FW dips that was from my experience. And I beg to differ with you that the only way to get them off is a FW dip. What causes you to think that your experience is better than mine or anybody elses. You stated your opinion. I stated mine and others stated theirs. Leave it at that and dont think you are the only one right. Like I always say Opinions are like armpits. We have two and they both stink. I dont care what kind of expert you are, I just know from my personal experience what has worked for me.
 
TCTFish said:
Steve...be open to learning something that is very important in marine fish. It's a growing problem and the only way to control it on the market is to be aware and treat appropriately. A formalin bath without freshwater will NOT kill these parasites. In fact...formalin isn't meant to kill the parasite. It's meant to treat for the diseases these parasites can leave in their hosts. It's a preventative measure for the most part. Now if you treat the disease without treating the origin of the disease...then it returns because the element creating the disease in the first place may still be present. High nitrate would amplify the problem, but doesn't mean high nitrates is the origin.
You obviously haven't learned very much in your chosen employment field. How can you recommend a treatment for something you can't even remember the name of? Formalin is a very effective treatment for certain external parasites. FW+Formalin usually ends up in a dead fish so I wouldn't recommend that to anyone. SW formalin baths are an option as is praziquantel being a good alternative. FW dips are usually the weakest form of remedy and generally not always effective.

As far as the symptomes described, just because the fish species is more prone to a certain malady does not predispose that all should be lumped into the same category automatically with the exception of a few species. The symptoms conveyed thus far are indicitive of a great many ailments and nothing conclusive can or should be drawn from it at this point. Given the information, the best conclusion is bacterial, not parasitic of which water quality and husbandry is directly related. You need to look at the whole picture before making decisions of this type, not simpley jumping to conclusions because you've treated something in the past with similar symptoms.

Cheers
Steve
 
...and though I don't have the name...I do remember the article and have described this parasite in detail with the exception of the name. I've been searching for this article for years so I can get a name. We all know how tedious it can be to remember most of these scientific names.

I've mentioned in the past that once I do find the article, this forum will be the first place to recieve it. These parasites create the problems you most often see in the trade. SW dips will not to a damn thing to these parasites with or without formalin. They are cirular, ranging in size that I've seen from really small to up about 1/2 and inch. Pretty big sometimes. They are natural to the lumberjack fish. Transparent except when expose to freshwater when they die.

Angels are not the only marine fish they are commonly seen on. They have been seen on all kinds of fish, including those that can't be FW dipped. Know what happens to them? They die. We won't dip them in FW, but try other ways, but they always end up dead because we cannot kill these parasites any other way.

The bacterial infections you are describing, as stated in a previous post, can be caused by these parasites and those in the know do know that a FW dip is the only way to rid the source of these infections. If the fish ends up not having these bugs on them, then great. You know that's one less thing to worry about and the fish can go directly into treatment for it's ailment. But what if they are present? Would you not want to know? You'll only know if the fish is dipped in FW. All the fish this person has can withstand a quick little FW bath. If any of these fish end up dying from the dip, then it was going to die anyway.

This is more than something I've dealt with in the past. It's something I continue to deal with and deal with on a regular basis and have for several years.

It's not jumping to conclusions either. It's realistic and very probable that her angel had these parasites....and if not, this person would know for certain by dipping the fish in FW and not have anything fall off. As stated in the first post...

FW dips are a postivie way to confirm or deny the presence of these parasites.
 
You and I have gone circles on this one before. You couldn't prove yourself then and you've done little to change that here...

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?p=325593#325593

You speak of a mysterious lumberjack fish... what species?, and article you can't find or reference, a unnamed Monogenea and a treatment/test that could confirm the presence of most any ectoparasite.

Please define disease in this context for me. In the english language that is quite encompassing. What exact disease is being cured here?

If this problem in your words... "This is more than something I've dealt with in the past. It's something I continue to deal with and deal with on a regular basis and have for several years."... is so prevalent and such a problem in the "aquarium trade", how come you know so little about it?

Cheers
Steve
 
How I know about these parasites all started when I began working for bossman about 6 or 7 years ago. I went to LA with him every week to get marine fish from his warehouse and others in the area. There was a problem with marine fish dying in larger numbers with numerous infections from everywhere with those same symptoms and like everyone else, treated for viral and bacterial diseases, but it wasn’t going away. Problems persisited on the wholesale/retail end. Most of these issues don’t reach the retail/consumer end. The fish would die long before reaching a private tank. Many before reaching a retail store. Many of the larger retail stores of Petco and Petsmart at this time were giving up their marine section because of these same problems.

After a few years of battling these diseases and trying all sorts of treatments, we came across this article. There were actually two articles. I think one article was published in FAMA magazine. I looked on their website to find past issues, but only goes back about 2 years. I need a three to four year history and my email went unanswered. I remember the articles, but not the name of the parasite. After reading about this bug and about FW dipping, we started to do just that on the fish that were showing these symptoms and to our surprise all these little bugs came falling off of most of them. We never would have known if it weren’t for the literature available, which apparently is a big PITA to find. If you have any parasite references I can browse, please share.

Just like you, we treated for the obvious, but not realizing the underlying cause until it was brought to our attention.

Now we treat most of the new fish after they’ve relaxed at the warehouse with routine FW dips. Some other wholesale warehouses have also taken up the practice. The death of our marine fish and those at wholesale warehouses that practice FW dipping dropped dramatically because now we are aware of this parasite and know how to get rid of the organism that was reaping this havoc on marine fish.

I don’t know the particulars of exactly what diseases they cause, but most likely protozoan like Brooklynella is. I wouldn’t doubt for a moment that these parasites produce a disease that have such symptoms being it was these fish the bugs were falling off from the most.

Unfortunately this information hasn’t really reached the consumer end. Many on the retail end still are not aware of this parasite. Another unfortunate thing is that there are many wholesalers that don’t bother with disease preventatives or treatments of any kind on their fish. This is when fish with these parasites do make it into the private tank if the retailer doesn’t make preventative measures as well.

A disease in my definition is the product of organisms attacking and destroying cells. Most origins of diseases link back to a parasite of some kind.

THe 'Lumberjack' fish (may be 'lamberjack') is more of a nickname of a marine fish Japanese fishing fleets often harvest. The parasite itself, if I remember correctly originates in the Carribean. The harvesting of these fish all over the world has spread this parasite to nearly all oceans. That's what one article had to say.

Just because I can't remember the name of a parasite doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means I can't remember the name. Next time I get the opportunity to do so, I'll try to take some photos. I can only photograph the parasites after the fish has been dipped. Can't see them otherwise.

If you ever come across photos of perfectly round transparent trematodes, please share. Come hell or high water, I'll eventually come across a name.
 
I would strongly suggest you go back to the drawing board on this one. Your drawing conclusions with no specific evidence. If you ever come across this article (which I doubt) I'm sure you will be more than happy to link to it. The description of what your conveying fits no particular worm problem but best described as either monogeneans or nematodes. If FW showed any possitive results, most likely the monogenean. All you most likely did was alleviate the symptoms, not cure the parasite. As to your theory on causing other diseases, again completely false. A worm infestation cannot bring about another parasite. It can however lower the immune response enough to allow an already present parasite take hold.

What you have done basically is taken a shotgun approach to a problem you can't completely solve or identify and have simpley made up your mind as to it's cause. You yourself said in that earlier thread the FW dip was folowed up by a formalin bath. If you have any hope of getting this solved, I would suggest getting several scrapings from several different infested fish or sending any dead fish for necropsy to have the particular organism identified properly. If your going to use a shotgun approach, I would suggest the use of Parziquatel based meds instead. It will have far greater impact and actually effect a cure not simpley mask the problem for someone to deal with later. This would be effective on Monogenea, Nematoda, Cestode and Digenean.

As far as your mystery fish is concerned, I would suggest looking at an amberjack. Just a guess but the closest I could think of with the widest ranging population.

Cheers
Steve
 
To the original poster of this thread (bpeitzke) I sincerely appologize for your topic being so miserabley side tracked. If you wish your topic to be seperated into it's original thread, please say the word, I would be more than happy to accomodate you. If you have found any of this discussion helpful, I will leave it as is.

Again, my appologies.
Cheers
Steve
 
Know what Steve...why don't you do some research instead of knocking me about something you do not know about. And that's it...the Amberjack.

I find you have been somewhat rude on the subject as before by making judgemental comments. The original poster has enough info. to make their own choice. You don't need to continue knocking down advice on an issue you are lacking info. on without doing any research yourself.

Not everyone is going to do scrappings and send out for necropsies. I can't afford it. We are dealing with the general public most which can't afford it or won't spend the money for it. A simple three to five minute FW bath will show if a fish is infected with these parasites without excessive costs. Once the parasites are removed and if there isn't too much damage to the fish, they can be saved with medications. If the parasites are absent, then you know to look elsewhere for the problem.

Parasites are notorious of being origins of disease; trematodes are no exception.

Enough has been said on this thread. If you wish to continue this debate...in a mature matter (without judgemental comments) then start a new thread.
 
I have been reading this thread daily now. Being someone that went to law school but grew a conscience I can not help but make a comment on it.
bpeitzke: I can not sit here a let one of the best sources of SW information, disease or otherwise get badgered alone any longer. Ask any of the regulars or advisors on this site about Steve-s. He is " 8) THE MAN"
why don't you do some research instead of knocking me about something you do not know about
Steve supplied scientific names as well as treatments for every disease or parasite he named. You are the one with no reference/article or names to back up anything you have stated.

Not everyone is going to do scrappings and send out for necropsies. I can't afford it
from you own post.
Many of the larger retail stores of Petco and Petsmart at this time were giving up their marine section because of these same problems.
I am sure these companies could afford a few thousand for some lab work. Last time I checked they still had SW items.

I could comment endlessly about comments in this thread but I am honestly to lazy and tired to do so. In short Steve-s has helped me more times than I can count on my hands and toes. He has NEVER given me bad information. I am sure Fluff, Quarryshark, Hara, Lando and other advisors and regulars could say the same.

TCTFish: sorry if this makes you mad but my common sense is taking over. Maybe if I have a few drinks I will be more inclined to listen. (PS. I do not drink) If you ever find that article from 4 years ago please post it.
Steve-s: I know you are a big boy and can take care of yourself. I guess I am just a glutton for punishment.
bpeitzke: Sorry you lost your fish but after reading these post I think you know who to listen to on here.
I am going to go hide now.
 
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