Sick Tang, please take a look at pic and help if you can

[Kyle_nix]

Okay, after adding a blue hippo 2 weeks ago, I believe I encountered ich on him. I tried treating with water changes and garlic but it got worst and spread to my clown and yellow.

I set up a 25g quarantine tank and after much research decided I would treat in there with a product I had called nox-ich.

Within one hour the blue hippo that took me a half hour to catch was dead Within a few more hours I started to notice brown marks on my yellow tang (see first pic).

I tested the water and ammonia was sky high 1.0. I did big water change, tested again, still high. left it for a bit, now my clown was showing signs of its stress. Yellow tang fins eating away. I had to make a choice, keep them in the death trap of ammonia or put them back in my cycled tank with ich. Two more water changes and the ammonia would not go down. I am figuring the scars are ammonia burn.

After an emergency visit to my LFS, we decided that instead of using copper in the quarantine tank and risking ammonia poisoning further I would buy a product called kick-ich. It is apparently safe for reef, live rock. I mix of review about it on google search some say works other say not. What are my options at this point??

So I got home switched them back to the display tank and they live over night. Yellow tang looks like he's pealing skin like a sun burn and grey eyes. Clown swimming at the top of tank.

I leave for work for the day and now come home to a dead clown and tangs eyes look a little better but his fins are worse and the pealing of his skin is worse (see pic 2 & 3).

What is the cause of this?? Ammonia burn?? Flux?? I need help!! I don't know what to do and obviously don't want to loose anymore fish, this is a hard lesson as it is.

[mr_X]

i'm not sure flex is seen in marine fish. at least i've not seen it in any of the fish i've imported, however, i did read this about flex:
Flex is often brought on by poor water conditions including the presence of ammonia, nitrite or elevated nitrate levels due to infrequent water changes, decaying matter in the tank or overstocking.


If caught early, Flavobacterium columnare is quite treatable but if left to progress it can be fatal. To treat flex, purchase an aquarium antibiotic that treats gram-negative bacterial infections. I recommend Mardel’s Maracyn-Two. For serious instances, a combination of both Maracyn and Maracyn-Two may be best to cover any secondary infections. The two medications together will treat both gram-positive and gram-negative bacterium. The antibiotic, oxytetracycline, has been regarded as a very effective cure and may be a key ingredient in some medicated fish foods. this particular website says it's mostly in freshwater bettas.



some more food for thought:

Ammonia poisoning can happen suddenly, or over a period of days. Initially the fish may be seen gasping at the surface for air. The gills will begin to turn red or lilac in color, and may appear to be bleeding. The fish will being to lose its appetite and become increasingly lethargic. In some cases fish may be observed laying at the bottom of the tank with clamped fins.
As the damage from the ammonia poisoning continues, the tissues will be damaged as evidenced by red streaks or bloody patches that appear on the body and fins. Internal damage is occurring to the brain, organs, and central nervous system. The fish begins to hemorrhage internally and externally, and eventually dies.

Treatment:

Lower pH below 7.0
25 - 50% water change
Use chemical to neutralize ammonia
Discontinue or reduce feeding

If the ammonia level rises above 1 ppm as measured by a standard test kit, begin treatment immediately. Lowering the pH of the water will provide immediate relief, as will a 50% water change (be sure to use water that is the same temperature as the aquarium). Several water changes within a short period of time may be required to drop the ammonia to below 1 ppm.
If the fish are in severe distress, the use of a chemical to neutralize the ammonia is recommended. Feedings should be restricted so that additional waste is reduced. In cases of very high ammonia levels, feedings should be discontinued for several days. No new fish should be added until the tank until the ammonia and nitrite levels have fallen to zero.
Because ammonia toxicity is linked to the pH, testing of both ammonia and pH levels are critical. Ammonia becomes increasingly toxic as the pH rises above 7.0. Because there are so many variables, there is no magic number to watch for. However, there are general guidelines to follow.
At a level of level of 1 ppm or 1 mg/l, fish are under stress, even if they don't appear in acute distress. Levels even lower than that can be fatal if the fish are exposed continuously for several days. For that reason it is critical to continue daily testing and treatment until the ammonia drops to zero. When ammonia is elevated for a long period, it is not unusual to lose fish even after the ammonia levels start to drop.

[Kyle_nix]

Good research thank you!!

The reason I believe it has to be ammonia poison is because both the Yellow tang and the clown were pretty much perfectly fine (besides a few spots of ich starting) until I put the in the QT. 24hours later you see the results of my yellow and my clown is dead.

[Kyle_nix]

Also, now that I have taken them back out of the QT and back into the main tank & have been treating with the kick-ich, my levels are all good, no high ammonia nor nitrate. Yellow tangs skin seems to get worse but his eyes are better, is that a good sign?? I figure if it is a type of burn that it has to peel just like a human burn, YES/NO??

[mr_X]

yeah, i don't think flex works that fast either. ammonia poisoning does however. it's like the article reads, he may pull through, but he may still die.
btw, you should not use any ich meds on your display. no matter how safe they say it is.
i'm sorry to see that fish suffering like that. i hope you can correct the tank and possibly save him.

[Kyle_nix]

Ya, I have researched and found mixed reviews on this Kick-ich med. Some say it works others say not. There is more positve then negative. The most people that have negative are ones that had some sensative corals and they died but I just have live rock right now. I really dont think I have much other choice, they either die in QT from ammonia or display from ich. Lesson very hard learned to have a QT tank ready at all times. It sucks to see them suffer, I feel so helpless and really bad!!

[Kyle_nix]

Does high ammonia eat away at the fins like that too??

[Innovator]

Originally Posted by Kyle_nix

Okay, after adding a blue hippo 2 weeks ago, I believe I encountered ich on him. I tried treating with water changes and garlic but it got worst and spread to my clown and yellow.

Water changes and garlic do not kill parasites.

I set up a 25g quarantine tank and after much research decided I would treat in there with a product I had called nox-ich.

Nox-ich is Malachite green if I'm not mistaken, which is an anti-fungal medication that doesn't affect ich and is quite noxious.

Within one hour the blue hippo that took me a half hour to catch was dead Within a few more hours I started to notice brown marks on my yellow tang (see first pic).

Not surprising.

I tested the water and ammonia was sky high 1.0. I did big water change, tested again, still high. left it for a bit, now my clown was showing signs of its stress. Yellow tang fins eating away. I had to make a choice, keep them in the death trap of ammonia or put them back in my cycled tank with ich. Two more water changes and the ammonia would not go down. I am figuring the scars are ammonia burn.

Many medications alter water parameter readings including NH3. Tattered fins are usually associated with bacterial infections, though underlying Uronema is possible.

After an emergency visit to my LFS, we decided that instead of using copper in the quarantine tank and risking ammonia poisoning further I would buy a product called kick-ich. It is apparently safe for reef, live rock. I mix of review about it on google search some say works other say not. What are my options at this point??

Why would copper further steadfast or increase NH3? It won't unless you allow water quality to degrade. Isn't Kick-ich Formalin based? While Formalin can be used for Uronema and Brooklynella, it has limited response to ich.

So I got home switched them back to the display tank and they live over night. Yellow tang looks like he's pealing skin like a sun burn and grey eyes. Clown swimming at the top of tank.

I leave for work for the day and now come home to a dead clown and tangs eyes look a little better but his fins are worse and the pealing of his skin is worse (see pic 2 & 3).

What is the cause of this?? Ammonia burn?? Flux?? I need help!! I don't know what to do and obviously don't want to loose anymore fish, this is a hard lesson as it is.

Depends on what exactly is in the medications you gave, possibly mixed, but as of now I would perform a 50% water change in am and pm and dose Nitrofurazone for a secondary bacterial infection. If you have ich then copper is the most affordable route even though it is an appetite suppressant. Hyposalinity reduces toxicity, but takes much longer to kill the parasite and is invitation to Uronema.

[Kyle_nix]

Originally Posted by Innovator

Water changes and garlic do not kill parasites.

Yes, I did know that but I was under the impression the it boost the immune system to kick it themselves, a lot of positive on that method I read.

Originally Posted by Innovator

Nox-ich is Malachite green if I'm not mistaken, which is an anti-fungal medication that doesn't affect ich and is quite noxious.

Well, that maybe but then why the heck can they sell that with that claim of its purpose??

Originally Posted by Innovator

Not surprising.

THANKS for the moral support.......

Originally Posted by Innovator

Many medications alter water parameter readings including NH3. Tattered fins are usually associated with bacterial infections, though underlying Uronema is possible.

Why would copper further steadfast or increase NH3? It won't unless you allow water quality to degrade. Isn't Kick-ich Formalin based? While Formalin can be used for Uronema and Brooklynella, it has limited response to ich.

Sorry, I wasn't saying it would further steadfast or increase it but I could not get it under control so it was either keep them in that lethal environment or get them back into a good environment and try to deal with the ich. The thought at this point was that the ammonia in the QT was going to do more damage then the ich in display.

Originally Posted by Innovator

Depends on what exactly is in the medications you gave, possibly mixed, but as of now I would perform a 50% water change in am and pm and dose Nitrofurazone for a secondary bacterial infection. If you have ich then copper is the most affordable route even though it is an appetite suppressant. Hyposalinity reduces toxicity, but takes much longer to kill the parasite and is invitation to Uronema.

Kick-ich active ingredients: 5-nitroimidazoles. Again it is sold at fish stores to cure ich and not damage corals or live rock. Mixed reviews on it but more positive then negative. My QT tank is not ready to put fish in as it has not cycled and I will just have the same ammonia problem let alone the fish are probably really stressed now.

I will also say that I have a fox face and he seems to be fine through this same whole process, just stressed and hides right now but looks fine.

[Kyle_nix]

@Innovator, what is your thoughts on what my fish is suffering from?? ICH? ammonia poison/burn? flex?

[Innovator]

I don't think your animal had Nh3 poisoning personally. I think your readings were altered by medications, i.e. false readings. Garlic does help stabilize immune systems, but since ich is a parasite fish cannot just "kick it themselves" without human intervention. Many companies have personal stakes in their claims because their "laboratory tests" have confirmed an altered state; however, very few medications are considered invertebrate safe and those that claim to be don't appropriately eliminate parasites (if they did, they'd have the market in the palm of their hands) and in turn have a diminished concentration of the actual medication within. If you perform 50% water changes daily or twice daily you shouldn't have any noticeable NH3 (siphon all waste/uneaten food). Nitroimidazoles incorporates, in large part, Metronidazole which is used to kill internal parasites, just not ich usually (fed orally). Other than an actual ich medication, treat with an antibacterial to cover your bases in QT.

[mr_X]

i have had fish with ich when they first came in, and it subsided, never to be seen again. this has happened on multiple occasions. i do believe that a strong immune system can go a long way in overcoming it.

[Kyle_nix]

I regret to have to tell you that I went to bed and tang was still swimming, woke up this morning and he was dead. My fox face and sand goby are the only ones left look to be doing fine, fox face just looks a little stressed and hides but no signs of disease.

I would really still like to know what may have happened so anyones input reading this is still very valuable to me and anyone else who may encounter the same problem.

Thank you for your continued support.

One more question, I put back in my carbon and turned back on my skimmer just encase it was the meds that cause this to happen the last 24 hours. If all stays stable in my tank, how long should I wait until introducing fish again??

I have a UV sterilizer in my fresh water tank right now doing some work on a green water issue but I think it would be beneficial to put that onto the salt once that is complete. Sound like a good idea??

[mr_X]

i would wait a few weeks at least. the UV sterilizer isn't going to correct an ich problem or an ammonia problem, so i would leave it on the fresh tank.

[Kyle_nix]

Okay....I bought that UV after your advice on my fresh water tank. I hope it starts clearing up soon. Your right the water change made it worse.

The ammonia problem is only in the QT. Does UV not kill parasites??

[rollin_hard]

UV does kill some parasites and bacteria as well as algae spores but will not help with parasites attached to the fish.

[melosu58]

Some required reading

About garlic
Garlic: What has been Studied Versus What has been Claimed by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

Ich
An Ounce of Prevention is Worth a Pound of Cure: A Quarantine Tank for Everything by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com


Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part II by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

[mr_X]

Originally Posted by rollin_hard

UV does kill some parasites and bacteria as well as algae spores but will not help with parasites attached to the fish.

it's only going to kill what goes through it. there is very little bacteria in the water column, and the amount of ich parasites that will go through the UV unit are so few that it's not effective.

[Kyle_nix]

This is the problem I have learning about all this as a beginner. I am not saying either one of you are incorrect (obviously I don't know either way 100%) but all the research you do to try and learn about this always conflicts with someone else's opinion and you can never know what the actual correct answer is.

Then I really cant truly trust my LFS because it is a serious conflict of interest to him that he wants me to fail so that i buy more fish & product from him.

I find this is a loose loose unless you know someone personally to advise you.

I still do appreciate everyones help, but its just hard because everyone says something different for almost everything.

[mr_X]

well, we really didn't disagree.