Very concerned, California Ray

[stratmaster]

Hey guys,

I had an incident with some ich in my tank. Because I have a california stingray and I had to use copper on my emperor angel, I had to setup a hospital tank and dose the copper seperately to the emperor there. All is going well with the emp, but I am concerned because some black specs have developed all over my Ray overnight. Could it be copper poisoning? I messed up in that I was using the same bucket to do the water changes on the hospital tank (with the copper in it) that I use on my display tank. Could the copper have some how leached in the bucket and when I used it to add water to my display tank, there's a small amount of copper that mixed in and now there's copper effecting my Ray? I also was moving my floater hydrometer between the hospital tank and display tank. Or are the black spots not related to the copper? Do you think I should be using a different bucket for the hospital tank so there's no chance of copper going into the display tank?

Also when the emperor is done with the 21 day quarantine period and I'm ready to the move the emp back to the display tank, the copper won't like leach out of his system into the display tank will it?

Thanks,

Steve

 

[stratmaster]

Any ideas guys? I am really worried!

Steve

 

[Deep Seven]

I don't know much about rays, but I'll answer one of your questions.

Do you think I should be using a different bucket for the hospital tank so there's no chance of copper going into the display tank?

Yes. Definately. A quarantine tank should have seperate equipment to perform water changes. Not just because of the copper. A lot of contagion can travel through the water, and the water left on the equipment can contaminate the next tank they're used on.


EDIT:
I did a little googling, and it seems there is a parasite they call "black ich" the presents symtoms of black spots. Here's a post I found about it.
Black Spot or Tang Disease - Black Ich Diagnosis and Treatment

 

[stratmaster]

It looks like my Ray has black ick/ spot disease. That is NOT GOOD either if that's the case and I don't know what to do! You can't use copper on Rays so how the heck do you treat them if they get ick? Gosh I don't know what the heck to do, I am just so worried about my Ray.

 

[neilanh]

I know nothing about rays as well, but that link DS provided recommends formalin.

 

[Deep Seven]

I've done some more reading, this seems like a well researched link that deals specifically with sharks and rays, and they recommend formalin bath as well.
Home Aquarium Sharks and Rays

The most effective way to treat specimens with parasite problems is with dylox or by giving your shark or ray a formalin bath (1 milliliter of formalin per each gallon of water for one hour). Be sure to aerate the container while giving the bath. In less severe copepod infections, the parasites can be carefully picked off with tweezers or, even better, a cleaner wrasse can be employed as a biological control of crustacean parasites. If you were treating a bony fish for a parasitic infection, you would probably use a copper-based medication, but copper can interfere with the feeding behavior of some sharks, "jamming" their keen electrical sense. The minute pores visible on the underside of the snout and around the mouth are openings to the small organs responsible for sensing electric fields. These electroreceptors are extremely sensitive to voltage gradients. With this sensory capability, a hunting shark can detect the weak electric field produced by a respiring flounder at a distance of several feet. A metallic ion, like copper, will jam these electrosensors. However, not all sharks are sensitive to copper. For example, wobbegongs, nurse sharks and epaulette sharks can be kept in water treated with copper with no apparent ill effects.

This link is a more detailed discription of the formalin bath method, it's a secondary link from the article on black ich. This link is for "all" fish, so be careful they don't recommend something not good for rays.
How To Treat Ich Diseased Fish with Formalin
I hope the best for your ray. If you can get a good picture it would be a good idea to post it so others can tell you what they think it might be. Everything in this post I learned from google.

 

[stratmaster]

I've done some more reading, this seems like a well researched link that deals specifically with sharks and rays, and they recommend formalin bath as well.
Home Aquarium Sharks and Rays


This link is a more detailed discription of the formalin bath method, it's a secondary link from the article on black ich. This link is for "all" fish, so be careful they don't recommend something not good for rays.
How To Treat Ich Diseased Fish with Formalin
I hope the best for your ray. If you can get a good picture it would be a good idea to post it so others can tell you what they think it might be. Everything in this post I learned from google.

Wow what a wonderful article! I don't know how you found it, I looked for days and days about info on Ray disease and couldn't find anything. I really appreciate this. I am also going tomorrow to take a pic into a marine biologist (although he claims limited knowledge on Rays, like most people) so I may just have to take a chance on this if he has no ideas. A pic would be a good idea to post I suppose here. Yeah thanks for the support, I really really hope I don't lose him. He's so personable, it's just like in this article says that they are so smart. Eats out of my hand, let me pet him and everything. I don't know what I'll do if I lose him. I have him for almost a year and a half now.

Here is two pictures, the Ray is not the easiest to photograph so this is the best I could do. If the marine biologist has no suggestions, should I just go on this article and treat him with what is recommended?

 

[stratmaster]

This Formalin.... where do I pick it up?

 

[Deep Seven]

Foster and Smith sell this product, but they say not available in CA

Seems a there are a few online sellers. Might find it at a well stocked pet store.


I forget exactly what I searched. "ray black spots" was useless. I think the successful search was "california ray black spots" or "aquarium ray black spots"

 

[stratmaster]

The marine biologist I spoke today didn't have much input, however he said the picture wasn't of very good quality and he said it might be a good idea to bring him in so he can take a closer look at him. He did however say the formalin is a big no no. I forgot why he said exactly, but he said he did not recommend it. I don't know what the heck to do anymore, he did confirm it is not that black spot ick yellow tangs can get.

 

[Innovator]

No, don't use Formalin. How is the ray (I assume since you mentioned California stingray it is Urobatis halleri)? If the ray was exposed to even residual copper the black markings could be a tissue stress response, though this species is known for having black spots.

By the way, you realize this is a subtropical ray at around 62F, if you indeed have U. halleri.

 

[stratmaster]

Hey guys the Ray is doing much better now! It turned out to be a response to an ammonia spike. A healing process I suppose is the best way to think about it. I think he's going to make it thank you to all who helped me out on this forum.

Yes unfortunately I do realize the ray needs cooler water, unfortunately there's nothing I can do because I have three other fish in there that would probably freeze to death if the water was that cold lol. He's been doing great though the last two years even with the water at 78 degrees.

 

[melosu58]

Moved to the sick fish forum.

 

[stratmaster]

Ray is doing much better guys! He's much happier now. I've got the ammonia at 0 again, nitrites at 0 and the nitrate down a considerable amount. my phosphates were skyhigh and now I am working on those and those are even going down now. Water is back into tip top shape! I am going to do more frequent water changes this time around and I now have a heater on the tank so that way there's no big temp drops (which is what I think contributed to the terrible ick out break)