Betta lost more fin since last month

[dragon14]

As some of you may know, my betta fish had some (what I believe was) fin rot. I treated him twice with salt. This was in late July and then again in mid August. The second time he'd lost a lot more fin. The first time it was just pinholes.

I was watching him this morning, as I do every day, and then I decided to look at some pics of him from a month ago.

To my horror, I'm pretty sure he's lost more tail. The fins hanging underneath him (don't know what they're called) seem mostly fine. His dorsal fin is torn a bit but.

His tail since the end of August/early Sept, seems to have been further reduced. I can't believe I didn't realize that. I guess when you look at your fish every day they look the same sometimes, but if you look back at pictures, then you notice things you may not otherwise.

I'll try to post some pics later.

The only symptom is tail loss. And some pinholes. It's unclear if he still has pinholes. I've never noticed any black (except some on his dorsal fin which a few friends told me was normal coloring and they've stayed the same since I noticed them) or white spots on him through any of this. He eats fine. Yesterday he jumped up a little out of the water to try to bite my other half when he was trying to adjust his floating log. In all other ways other than this tail loss, he's fine.

I'm really worried about him. I love this little fish so much and I don't want him to loose any more tail. He's swimming well still. But I'm afraid if he loses more tail he may not be able to.

He's in a cycled 10g tank, 100watt Aquenon pro heater kept around 77-78 degrees. Aquenon QuietFlow 10 filter. Intake and output of the filter covered with Fluval pre filters, so he's not ripping his fins on that. He has silk plants/non sharp plants (fake) and we've made sure nothing is sharp so I doubt it's any tank decor doing this. We made sure it was all betta safe because he brushes lightly against things sometimes while swimming. He always has.

Ph is around 7.6. I checked everything a few days ago, will check again soon. Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate around 10. We have well water.

 

[Matt68005]

Ill give you the same advice i give everyone for disease's like this. Methylene blue for fungus tail rot and Terramycin (Oxytetracycline) antibiotic for bacterial infections, best thru feed. I know it may be kind of a pain to pay shipping, but if you buy them from kensfish.com, their REALLY cheap, stock up, used together, their really effective, youll have to re-cycle your tank after the week of treatment, but it really IS effective. I have tried every fish med known to mankind, and failed with almost all of them but these two wonder drugs. To me at least. Upping the temp will help him too with this, because fish fungus is really mold and mold dosent like warmth.
Two examples.
1. My black moor got into a fight with a koi in my big display tank years ago, he was in bad shape, lying on the bottom half dead, cadual tail shredded to nothing.
Put him in the methylene and feed him the terramycin food, doing PWC ever other day. Did this for about ten days.
Hes still alive today, and his tail has completely grown back
2. My wife and me were moving a tank of young female guppies, i put my end down and she put heres down but the tank cracked and guppies went flying all over our concrete basement floor. We spent the next ten minutes rescuing them, many were injured.
Same treatment, methylene blue, terramycin food (purreed for guppies small mouths) and upped the temp to 82.
Ten days later not a single fish was dead or even sick at all.

 

[dragon14]

You think that'll help? He was in a little tank while treating for salt and it may or may not have had some mold in it... I wiped it up with paper towels and I think I got it all, but. Maybe I did not Ugh. We left it sitting in water too long after moving him out of it into the 10g. Stupid stupid. Could any mold that I may have missed (and I didn't check in the back compartment where the filter and heater area is, just the space he was swimming in) have caused this to happen? He was in there for two months while we cycled the tank and treated him with salt. If I caused this to happen I feel so horrible!!!

I don't want to re-cycle the tank, so I may dose it with ammonia to keep it going until he goes back in. Also we will be adding some pygmy catfish soon.

I may just buy a small tank to treat him in then... you think this will work? I've also heard that betta fins sometimes don't grow back or take a long while...

I love this fish I don't want him to keep losing his fins! Ugh ugh!

I didn't even THINK about mold being in the BACK of the tank where the filter and heater go when we put him in there to treat him with salt and while we cycled the 10g tank... treating him in a possibly moldy tank, there's a smart idea! :'(

 

[dragon14]

http://reefbuilders.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/aqueon-evolve/aqueon-evolve-nano-aquarium-2.jpg

That is the tank he was in, see in the back? I didn't even think to check for mold there... ughh.

Is it possible since I moved him out of there and into the 10g the 10g tank itself could be affected now? I REALLY REALLY don't want to have to take it apart and re-cycle it. How would you even sanitize it? Also we have 7 little catfish that need to go in there in a couple weeks. I don't want to leave them in the 5g too long. They are in there for quarantine for now.

 

[dragon14]

Might I add, the first time after 2 weeks no water change in the 10g, the ammonia was .25 ppm. The 2g tank, it was .50 ppm after 5 days no water change. This was about 3-4 weeks apart. That is why we figured it was fin rot. And treated it as such. Other than that, he's been perfectly healthy and acting fine. I am now really concerned I may have exposed him to mold by leaving water sitting for a few weeks in the small tank. I had taken most of it out after 4-7 days, but, a couple inches was left for almost a month, and with no filtration running or antyhing, it got nasty. I cleaned up the swimmable area, wiping it up with paper towels and rinsing, but, didn't even think about the back area :'(

 

[Matt68005]

Methylene is the best choice for fungus/mold, and it dosent just treat the fish, it kills it all, in the tank, grave, filter everything. I personally dosed all my tanks today with M. Blue because i have been battling some kind of internal bacteria that kills a fish here and there and does not want to go away, so hey, ya it will work, sometimes you just gotta nuke the tank with methylene and treat with the antibiotic in case its bacterial, im gonna have to recycle a 35G, 20G long and two tens, methylene keeps alot of diseases at bay as well as detoxifying nitrate poising and increasing red blood cell and oxygen levels in the fish. I have always had sucess with it where other meds are too specific and have failed. If you just had like a ten gallonish tub, just fill it up with declor water and put 5ml methylene per ten gallons and he should be fine, as for recycling tanks, well thats something im gonna have to do as well, you can always get some Stress Zyme if you want to speed it along, and id rather have to do PWC and ammonia tests than have a disease never go away and keep dosing with other meds. M. Blue is messy, and it stains everything outside the tank, your clothes, carpet, wall and hands, but completely harmless its even used in humans. To me the biggest drawback is that it stains the gravel and my hands/clothes blue, not that i have to recycle a tank or two. Im just too straighforward and old fashioned to go spending money on fancy new drugs that can be dangerous, or innefective like the "mafix's" when this stuff is so cheap and so effective. a little bit of mold wont hurt him anyway, betas live in naturally dirty stagnant water. If you don't want to go this route i suppose you could just go buy a little bottle of Betafix and keep doing vacuming and PWC keep the water crystal clear until he heals up and grows back. Depends on how bad he is i guess. But absolutely does work and you could just drop him in a goldfish bowl or the like and use the m. blue there for a few days and treat the tank with something that dosent destroy BB.

 

[SuomiBetta]

http://reefbuilders.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/aqueon-evolve/aqueon-evolve-nano-aquarium-2.jpg

That is the tank he was in, see in the back? I didn't even think to check for mold there... ughh.

Is it possible since I moved him out of there and into the 10g the 10g tank itself could be affected now? I REALLY REALLY don't want to have to take it apart and re-cycle it. How would you even sanitize it? Also we have 7 little catfish that need to go in there in a couple weeks. I don't want to leave them in the 5g too long. They are in there for quarantine for now.

I've yet to hear of fungal fin rot but I wouldn't be surprised if a fungus attacked the fins since there's not much blood flow there. I would be more worried about stress and bacteria. The poster above me listed some good but very powerful treatment options. Plus, methaline blue WILL stain just about everything permanently I use it in biology lab work to stain cells to make them easy to see under a microscope. It's that powerful. You could try a broad spectrum antibiotic that will kill mold and bacteria. Just be aware that your biofilter will also perish. At this point neither of API's natural products will likely be very effective but you could try. I used Pimafix to help kill my outbreak of white water mold and my betta is happy and feisty. Has Bubbles been stressed lately? And how's the ammonia? API'S Stress Coat and Stress Zyme would help his fins too.

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[dragon14]

@Matt

I think this is a good idea, we just put him back in the 10g on Sept 20th after cycling it beginning Sept 1st. It was a smooth sailing cycling, and I just don't want to have to go through it again, but, hey, it'll make for practice, right?

SO you recommend treating this entire tank along with him, or could I move him into a new tank and treat that so I don't have to re-cycle the tank? I want to do what is best and that won't allow anything to keep hurting him. He's fine other than this, at least as far as i can tell. I am worried about him If there is anything in there, I don't want it affecting our pygmy catfish either when they go in.

What about rinsing sand and the filter cartridge and everything else that is in the tank? Will this stuff come out of it? How would you do that?

I don't even know if the tail fell off more while he was in the little tank or after in the 10g. Like I said, I thought it looked the same until I saw a picture from a month ago. I am really upset that he is losing fins. If he looses more then what if he can't swim? I'll feel so horrible.

What a disaster

 

[Matt68005]

You would sanitize it by washing it out in the tub with scalding hot water and letting it sit with M. Blue for a few hours or overnight. And ovbiously wiping off all that back area.
There are things that are reasonably effective for mold that dont kill BB unless you go over the dose limit, one of them being "rid ich plus" or malachite green/formalin. Another would be "fungus cure" or Nitrofurazone + furaziole or whatever its called, just a antimicrobial that usually comes as a tablet.
Just giving you some ideas for future reference, heck the only thing that keeps me occupied and sane this time of day when the kids get home is talking fish.

 

[SuomiBetta]

@Matt

I think this is a good idea, we just put him back in the 10g on Sept 20th after cycling it beginning Sept 1st. It was a smooth sailing cycling, and I just don't want to have to go through it again, but, hey, it'll make for practice, right?

SO you recommend treating this entire tank along with him, or could I move him into a new tank and treat that so I don't have to re-cycle the tank? I want to do what is best and that won't allow anything to keep hurting him. He's fine other than this, at least as far as i can tell. I am worried about him If there is anything in there, I don't want it affecting our pygmy catfish either when they go in.

What about rinsing sand and the filter cartridge and everything else that is in the tank? Will this stuff come out of it? How would you do that?

I don't even know if the tail fell off more while he was in the little tank or after in the 10g. Like I said, I thought it looked the same until I saw a picture from a month ago. I am really upset that he is losing fins. If he looses more then what if he can't swim? I'll feel so horrible.

What a disaster

I would treat the tank given that you want to add more fish who's immune systems are already overworked. You can easily replace the biofilter with the quick start and stress zyme. I definitely would NOT start yanking sand out. We don't want to stress Bubbles. I would only rinse the filter cartridge if there's visible growth on it. You could rinse out the body of the filter which is where most water molds grow.

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[Matt68005]

What about rinsing sand and the filter cartridge and everything else that is in the tank? Will this stuff come out of it? How would you do that?
What a disaster

Yes, it will come off glass, not sure if it will come off plexiglass, not sure on that one, so if its one of those plastic betta cubes i would google that first for sure. The filter, toss it and buy a new one or just rinse the hell out of it under scalding hot water. The sand you would have to toss as well, once anything but glass is blue, it stays blue lol (ask my wife)

 

[dragon14]

I've yet to hear of fungal fin rot but I wouldn't be surprised if a fungus attacked the fins since there's not much blood flow there. I would be more worried about stress and bacteria. The poster above me listed some good but very powerful treatment options. Plus, methaline blue WILL stain just about everything permanently I use it in biology lab work to stain cells to make them easy to see under a microscope. It's that powerful. You could try a broad spectrum antibiotic that will kill mold and bacteria. Just be aware that your biofilter will also perish. At this point neither of API's natural products will likely be very effective but you could try. I used Pimafix to help kill my outbreak of white water mold and my betta is happy and feisty. Has Bubbles been stressed lately? And how's the ammonia? API'S Stress Coat and Stress Zyme would help his fins too.

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I don't think he's been stressed. He even made a random bubble nest yesterday about a half inch away from the left side of the tank last night... I was like awwww He was put in the tank on Sept 20 and has been happy as a clam in there ever since... I will post some pics tomorrow of him. I managed to get a decent shot of his body and fins today. He gets in the way during water changes but I don't think he gets stressed from it. He eats more than happily.


I don't want the biofilter that we are so proud of to perish and have to be re-cycled, but, eh, you do what you gotta do, right?

I am going to check all the water tests tomorrow and will write back here about the results, but, three days ago (Sept 28) it was 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 10ish nitrate. Perfect. We did about a 3g water change after checking too. The water was perfect 3-4 days before that too.

Above all, I love this fish and I want him to get better so I will do what I have to do to get him better. I don't want to have to re-cycle the tank, I'd rather get another tank and treat him outside of the 10g tank. But if anyone thinks the tank should be cycled along with him, so be it.

I think moving him so much may stress him more... he hates being moved. My hubby moves him in the net so I don't have to when we have to move him, plus it makes me so sad to see him flop around in it!

I would love to try to give him something that will help his fins. I don't want them getting any worse, and I want them to grow back if possible too!

I am so new to keeping fish and I feel like I messed up big time here, but maybe it isn't even my fault?

::Sigh::

 

[SuomiBetta]

Yes, it will come off glass, not sure if it will come off plexiglass, not sure on that one, so if its one of those plastic betta cubes i would google that first for sure. The filter, toss it and buy a new one or just rinse the hell out of it under scalding hot water. The sand you would have to toss as well, once anything but glass is blue, it stays blue lol (ask my wife)

Fingers too! I work in a lab and I look like I smashed a smurf when I use it. Bleach is about the only thing that gets rid of it.

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[dragon14]

Yes, it will come off glass, not sure if it will come off plexiglass, not sure on that one, so if its one of those plastic betta cubes i would google that first for sure. The filter, toss it and buy a new one or just rinse the hell out of it under scalding hot water. The sand you would have to toss as well, once anything but glass is blue, it stays blue lol (ask my wife)

We have a glass 10g Aquenon tank.

The sand is brand new (Sept 1st this year) and cost us $23. And it is black, so may not stain. I don't want to have to get new sand. I hate to say this but I can't keep buying new stuff. Ugh. That's why if at all possible, I'd like to treat him outside the tank (I have no problem buying a new small tank and stuff if I have to) and leave the tank alone if you don't think the tank has something in it too. It would be pretty burdensome at this point to buy new sand and if I had to buy other stuff too :/ I don't mind buying a new filter, its like $5, so ah well. Would it be bad for this stuff to stay in the tank? (Obviously I would do a nearly 100% water change after treating him) I don't care so much about staining, depending on what gets stained, but I can't afford to replace a lot of stuff that is in the tank right now. ::Sigh::

I would never put him in a tiny betta cube. I think those things should be banned personally but that is another story for another day.

 

[SuomiBetta]

I don't think he's been stressed. He even made a random bubble nest yesterday about a half inch away from the left side of the tank last night... I was like awwww He was put in the tank on Sept 20 and has been happy as a clam in there ever since... I will post some pics tomorrow of him. I managed to get a decent shot of his body and fins today. He gets in the way during water changes but I don't think he gets stressed from it. He eats more than happily.


I don't want the biofilter that we are so proud of to perish and have to be re-cycled, but, eh, you do what you gotta do, right?

I am going to check all the water tests tomorrow and will write back here about the results, but, three days ago (Sept 28) it was 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 10ish nitrate. Perfect. We did about a 3g water change after checking too. The water was perfect 3-4 days before that too.

Above all, I love this fish and I want him to get better so I will do what I have to do to get him better. I don't want to have to re-cycle the tank, I'd rather get another tank and treat him outside of the 10g tank. But if anyone thinks the tank should be cycled along with him, so be it.

I think moving him so much may stress him more... he hates being moved. My hubby moves him in the net so I don't have to when we have to move him, plus it makes me so sad to see him flop around in it!

I would love to try to give him something that will help his fins. I don't want them getting any worse, and I want them to grow back if possible too!

I am so new to keeping fish and I feel like I messed up big time here, but maybe it isn't even my fault?

::Sigh::

Ack! That nitrate isn't good and I suspect that's the culprit. Bulk up the biofilter in there to get that down. I wouldn't move him either.

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[dragon14]

Ack! That nitrate isn't good and I suspect that's the culprit. Bulk up the biofilter in there to get that down. I wouldn't move him either.

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10 ppm nitrate is bad? Really? I thought that was pretty good? :/

How would I bulk up the biofilter?

 

[SuomiBetta]

10 ppm nitrate is bad? Really? I thought that was pretty good? :/

You want both nitrite and nitrate to be zero. That will burn fins and slowly poison the fish. My betta is in water with 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate and his fins are slowly healing. Sometimes they get worse before better. The problem is that the fins don't get much blood flow since they're so big compared to the rest of the body.

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[dragon14]

You want both nitrite and nitrate to be zero. That will burn fins and slowly poison the fish. My betta is in water with 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and 0 nitrate and his fins are slowly healing. Sometimes they get worse before better. The problem is that the fins don't get much blood flow since they're so big compared to the rest of the body.

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Oh crap. I thought anything under 20ppm was fine. Maybe just not for a betta? That's what the test and online seems to say... and isn't nitrate the stuff that eats the ammonia and/or nitrite? I will test my tap again but I don't think it has any in it....

 

[Matt68005]

Suomi, fungus can and does attack the fins of fish, especially long finned fish like betas and guppies, they don't get enough blood flow to their fins because their larger than nature intended, and i deal with guppies only. My kid has a beta, and i have some Fancy goldfish. True bacterial fin rot is brownish, not whiteish. More often than not finrot is caused by poor water and saporenogelia or whatever mold.
edit, just saw the bloodflow thing on your post, absolutely.

 

[SuomiBetta]

Oh crap. I thought anything under 20ppm was fine. Maybe just not for a betta? That's what the test and online seems to say... and isn't nitrate the stuff that eats the ammonia and/or nitrite? I will test my tap again but I don't think it has any in it....

No both nitrite and nitrate are by products of the nitrogen cycle. Thats why you have tank cycling: converting nitrogen from poisonous forms to useable ones. That's what the bacteria do.

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