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Old 06-28-2013, 07:13 PM   #1
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Black moor goldfish had ick, now fungus?

Hi all,

I have a black moor goldfish that is sick.

He originally came down with a severe case of ick. In response to that, I moved him to a separate 20g QT, and treated the ick with a solution of 0.3% salt. That seemed to cure the ick over the course of ~10 days.

Now he has another issue. I am seeking advice on what this ailment is and the best way to treat it.

Thanks and best regards,
Kent
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Old 06-29-2013, 11:26 AM   #2
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Welcome to AA!!! Can you please provide some more information? Tank size? Stocking? Exact numbers for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph? What you are using to test (liquid or strips)? Water change schedule (%/# wk)?

Next, did you treat the tank he came from? You can not treat ich in qt- the entire tank is infested and needs to be treated. If you treated him in qt then added him back to infested tank, this needs to be addressed as well.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:05 PM   #3
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1. Tank size: 20g

2. Tank stock: 1 7" long black moor goldfish (Bugsy )

3. Temp: 74F

4. Ammonia: 0.5 ppm

5. Nitrite: 0.125 ppm

6. Nitrate: 20 ppm

7. Test kit: API Freshwater Master Test Kit

8. Water change: Bugsy was moved to QT on 6/14. QT was a brand new tank and was filled with 0.3% API aquarium salt solution (2.5t/g). 1st week in QT: daily 50% water changes with salt replaced at 0.3% concentration. 2nd week in QT: every other day 50% water changes with salt replaced at 0.3% concentration.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:31 PM   #4
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Background information

Bugsy has been in our family for the past 3 years. We inherited him from a neighbor and he was the lone occupant of a 20g tank until 4 weeks ago.

What happened 4 weeks ago you may ask? A close family friend, a grandfatherly type, offered to take my 11 year old son to Petco to buy more fish for his tank. I didn't want to be the mean guy, so I bit my tongue. The next day, 5 new fish are in the tank representing 4 different breeds.

What happened next? New fish #1 had to be removed due to aggression. New fish #2 died on day 3. New fish #3 died on day 5. The remaining 4 fish (Bugsy plus the remaining 3 newcomers), seemed to be doing ok for the next couple of days, when I noticed Bugsy developing white specks (this would have been 3 weeks ago on the timeline). The next few days I researched on how to best treat the ich. This was the first time Bugsy had ever had ich.

My first step in Bugsy's treatment was to remove all of the new fish from his tank. Second, I did several 50% water changes in his tank to improve the water quality. Next, I considered adding chemical ich treatments to his tank and raising the tank temp. However, then I found a thread on this forum from jlk advising another black moor goldfish owner to treat ich using a QT with 0.3% salt solution and 50% daily water changes. So that is the course of treatment that I chose.

It took about 10 days in the QT for all of the white spots to fall off, but now that the ich is gone Bugsy appears to have a secondary infection of some sort. His symptoms are:

1) the white fluffy patch on his left side,
2) white spots on his tail (but not the salt grain-like ich spots he did have).

Final note, the QT was empty of any gravel until 2 days ago, when I added a thin layer of gravel and a bottle of Tetra SafeStart. I did this as this QT will be Bugsy's home for a while until I have the time to scrub down his display tank. As you can see from my numbers above, the nitrites and nitrates are not zero, indicating the presence of some cycling.

Thanks again for taking the time to read and reply!

Kent
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Old 06-29-2013, 10:50 PM   #5
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Thanks for all the info! Ok, I am a bit confused on few things here. Is the 20g the qt or is he in a smaller tank than this? Are there any remaining new fish now? If so, where are they and have they been treated as well?

For right now, you have to be religious about water changes as you have ammonia and nitrite present. That will be step one in getting him healthy. You really need to keep amm/nitrite as close to zero as possible. What do you have access to meds-wise? Something as simple as a methylene blue bath 1x a day may be all he needs to help clear up his issues. If this does not improve his condition, he may need some additional help.
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Old 06-29-2013, 11:36 PM   #6
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Sorry for any confusion! He is still in the 20g QT, and he will be remaining in the QT until he gets 100% healthy.

Unfortunately, all of the new fish have died.

For Bugsy and the QT, the complicating factor is that we have some vacation coming up, and I wanted to move away from the daily water changes and get the tank cycling.

In order to get the tank cycling, and relieve some of the daily water change burden on the house sitter, I added a thin layer of brand new, washed gravel to the QT. I also added Tetra SafeStart.

For meds, I am close to both Petco and Petsmart.

The methylene blue bath is something I can do, but is too much to ask of my house sitter, who has no aquarium experience.

Is there a medication that I can add to the QT that will both help Bugsy get better and not require daily water changes?

For the time being, I will dial up the water changes to get the ammonia and nitrite to 0 and I will continue with the 0.3% salt water.

Regards,
Kent
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:05 AM   #7
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If he has been free of ich for a week, start working on reducing the salinity. Just don't add back any salt with future wcs.

What size is his main tank? Have you been adding an ammonia source to keep it cycled? He would be better off in a larger tank with more water to dilute toxin levels right now. The issue here is with him in a tank with toxins, it will be difficult to attempt any type of tank treatment as healthy water is necessary for a treatment to be successful. This is why I suggested MB baths daily instead. If you want to try a tank treatment, you will need to reduce the toxin levels to as close to zero as possible first. A product such as Tetra fungus (guard? it used to be called Jungle) has a mild antibiotic and an anti-fungal in it. You will need to treat for atleast 7 days and likely still need to do wcs daily (sorry! there is no way around this as healthy water comes first). If your not already using Prime, I would suggest switching to help limit the affects of toxins between wcs.

Part of the issue with toxins is he is a large fish in a small tank- if you have to leave for extended time, your only option is to put him back in his big tank and hope for the best until you return. If left in the small tank without wcs while you are gone, I am afraid to say that the situation will only become worse while you are gone. Your sitter can add a daily dose of Prime (to the tank size) while you are gone if wcs are not going to be an option on the bigger tank. Best I can suggest considering your situation!
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:17 PM   #8
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Oh... I need to ask a clarifying question. Is a 20g tank not big enough for a single black moor goldfish? He is 7" from nose to the very end of his tail.

Both his main tank and the qt are 20g.
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:18 PM   #9
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Honestly, at 7in, a 20g is very, very small for him. I would not keep him in anything less than a 40g.
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Old 07-09-2013, 03:49 PM   #10
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I am back from my vacation, and Bugsy is doing much better:

1. The cotton like patch on his side is ~1/4 of its original size.
2. No more white patches on his tail fins.
3. No more bottom sitting, and all together more active.

However, I still need to address:

1. The cotton like patch on his side (smaller, but not gone).
2. Cloudy eyes with small white patches near the eyelids (one small white patch per eye).

Further, I am switching over to Prime today for the daily water changes in the qt.

Questions:

1. Are daily methylene blue baths still the best treatment option for the 2 remaining symptoms?

2. If yes, then can you please provide detailed methylene blue bath instructions?

3. If I move to a bigger tank, what is the more important dimension for a black moor goldfish, width or height?

Thanks again,
Kent
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:32 AM   #11
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I would start with mb baths and see if there is improvement over a couple of days before considering a tank treatment. I would also increase his wcs to daily until he is back to normal.

White areas and cloudy eyes on a moor of indicative of toxin issues. As they have very delicate eyes, even nitrate levels of 20ppm (or higher) can burn them. Any amount of ammonia can result in burns as well. Whether they will clear or not depends on the severity of the burn and if it has secondary infections. Some pics of what is going on here will help! If you need help with posting pics, just ask!

For a big guy, I would probably look into something like a 40g breeder which has length and width vs height. If space is a consideration, work with you have to come up with something that gives him some more room to grow. Ideally, fancies do bit better with length/width vs height as deeper water can affect buoyancy issues (which they are prone to). Hope this helps a bit!
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:22 PM   #12
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jlk, I found a post of yours that details how to do a mb bath.

Are these correct for my situation as well?

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums...ml#post2460007

Thanks!
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:41 PM   #13
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Yep! 1tsp per 3-5g. Dose doesn't have to exact as mb is very forgiving so if theres 4.1g of water, its still 1tsp. The water should look a nice blue color. 1x a day should be fine for him. You can increase the bathtime as needed up to an hour but just keep an eye him in case he decides he wants out. If you do not see improvement in a few days, we may need to resort to other options.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:27 PM   #14
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Here are 4 pictures of Bugsy's left side/left eye.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:29 PM   #15
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Here is a single picture of Bugsy's right eye. It is noticeably bigger than the left eye. From the day we got him, his right eye is either shrinking or growing.
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:30 PM   #16
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jlk, any comments based on the pics I posted?

Thanks,
Kent
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:26 PM   #17
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Thanks! Its a tiny spot- I was actually expecting his entire eye to be covered by your description! I think the mb baths will be sufficient to get this cleared up. You can add 1 level tbsp. of plain salt (no more) to his bath water, too (1tbsp/5g).

Difference in eye size is common with moors and other fluid telescope eye goldfish. His eyes are fluid filled eyes and fluid levels can vary. I would not be alarmed unless something changes drastically in a short time frame. The fluid areas can also be damaged leading to the appearance of one eye being quite larger than the other as the damaged eye can not fill properly with fluid.
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Old 07-14-2013, 09:37 PM   #18
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Petco is having a dollar per gallon sale right now, so a bigger tank is going to happen.

If I go to a 40g breeder, what would be a good filter setup? My experience to date has been with aqueon hanging filters, which work ok, but I find them a bit noisy and Bugsy loads up the filters very quickly!
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:30 AM   #19
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That's great news! Its really up to you and your budget for what type of filtration you want to run. I have aqueons, too, and I am pretty happy with them. If noise is a concern, skip the marineland hob-type filters. Most people are quite happy with the aquaclear filters. You can also consider a canister filter for this size tank which will also be the quietest.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:31 AM   #20
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Almost forgot to ask- how is Bugsy doing??
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