Black Moore troubles that never end

[GT]

I have a very frustrating problem. I have a 54 gallon tank in which I had three tennis ball sized fish. Two Ryukin and a Black Moore. The tank was stricken with Ick. We don't know how and we are very sensitive to water quality. Anyway, we lost the two Ryukins because it was difficult to see the spots on their orange scales. The Black Moore broke out with white spots and we began to treat it with every recommended medication we could find (not at the same time). Most notable was Rid Ich + from Kordon. We tried repeatedly, but the male Black Moore's spots all along its sides would not go away. We switched to a combination of AP 's Quick Cure (containing Malachite Green and FormaIin) and Methylene Blue. Still the fish was covered in the spots. In frustration, I removed all of the gravel and rock from his tank to give the disease no refuge and elevated the tank temperature to 80 degrees. After three weeks, his spots finally began to go away. We held firm to the treatment (by the way the carbon was removed from the canister filter), but every few weeks the spots would return. Otherwise the fish was healthy. Its a bit timid (and who wouldn't be after all its been through) but it eats well and looks fine, except the spots keep coming and going in cycles of two or three weeks. This went on for six months and it drove my wife and me nuts. We continued the combination treatment for about another month when we decided to stop for lack of results. Is it possible that I will never get this out of the fish's system? Are these some sort of weird scares?

Now things have gotten more confusing. About two months ago I was forced to put a blind and arthritic comet in the tank with the Black Moore. Mother nature has not been nice to the Comet and it was getting beat up by the Koi it roomed with (being blind was putting it a distinct disadvantage). The Comet also has a bad spinal curvature that makes it lay on its side. When it gets spooked, it slams its tail against the bottom of the tank. Meanwhile, the Black Moore still had those damned white spots and both fish were not happy with the bare bottomed tank. I gave up and put the rock back in the tank and both fish seemed pretty happy. However, my luck didn't hold. After repeatedly slamming his tail on the gravel, the Comet developed a bad sore. My wife treated the tank with Melafix to help it heal and I removed enough of th rock to leave a bare spot for the Comet to rest on. Suddenly the tank clouded up and the Black Moore's spots disappeared, but were replaced by a white film over his entire body! We tested the water thoroughly and found nothing wrong, but both fish seemed agitated. We transferred almost 50 gallons of water from our 200 gallon tank (which has clear, tested-perfect water). The 54 gallon tank fogged up with two days. On the bright side, the Comet's tail is healing, but his appetite has diminished some. If it helps any, I'm running a Fluval 304 filter and have plenty of airation in the tank. Its the same set up I have on my other three acquariums and they are working great.

I'm sorry about how long this is. I've been trying to solve my problems with this fish (now I guess its two fish) for some time and have written several web sites, but have gotten no feedback at all. I've been running acquariums for several years now, but this tank and the Black Moore have been trouble for me for about 7 months. I desperately want to get it worked out. What this poor Black Moore has been through is breaking my heart.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Allivymar]

Feh. Don't be sorry about the post being long; the more info the better.

I'm wondering if your Moor did not have ich, but has Trichodina instead. Also characterised by white pinhead kinda bumps, and a film. You can read more (sorry, no pun intended) here: http://www.fish-disease.com/diseases.htm (just scroll down to Trichodina). Thing is tho, the recommended treatments are similar to ich, and that hasn't worked for you guys.

When you treated, how long after the spots disappeared did you discontinue treatment? If it was ich, keep in mind it has a 3 stage life cycle and ONLY the freeswimming third is susceptible to the meds. Its not recommended to follow the instructions on most ich med bottles, but to instead to treat 3-4 days after seeing the last spot on the fish, to be sure you've gotten it all. I've also read on a number of forums there seems to be a med resistant form of ich out there, although this is obviously not scientifically confirmed. Maybe thats part of the issue? I personally just treated my tank for ich, but I have loaches, angels and a plec, so I could take advantage of the high temps/salt tx, which was highly successful. I don't know if it would work for goldfish types (the temps need to be over 86f); you might want to post on www.goldfishinfo.com as well and see if they know.

Can you post a pic? Might help with figuring out what is infecting your poor moor (great, now I'm rhyming. You must think I'm a nut LOL).

As for the cloudiness, coupla thoughts. Most ich meds play havok with the nitrifying bacterial colonies although Melafix shouldn't; you say parameters are good, but what are the numbers exactly? Also, bacterial blooms (assuming of course thats what it is) tend not to be blooms of nitrifying bacteria. Instead they usually consist of heterotrophic bacteria (which can convert ammonia, but prefer organic waste and will not touch ammonia unless there are no organics).

 

[GT]

Thanks for your reply and ideas. I'll try to address your questions.

After the spots disappeared on the Black Moore (his name is Emea), we continued treatement for over two months. During that time, the spots would come and go several times. I'm not sure I mentioned, but before we did the combination of AP 's Quick Cure (containing Malachite Green and FormaIin) and Methylene Blue, we did a very thorough salt treatment for over a month that didn't work at all. I just inspected Emea carefully and I have to admitt that I'm not entirely sure that the spots are leaving, but just fading in and out. They don't have any external feel and appear to be under the surface of his scales. Now I can't see them unless I hold him just right under the light. Right now, the spots are virtually impossible to see, but he is got that white film all over him.

As for the water quality, here are the numbers as of last night:
ph: 7.0
KH: 71.6 ppm
GH: 286.4 ppm
Ammonia: 0.0
Nitrite: 0.25

Overall, pretty good. The hardness is a little high, but not unusually for water that comes from the tap and its the same water I have in my other tanks and they are just fine. I've got some pictures to help, but I'm having some difficulty getting them in the forum. I haven't done a lot of this forum stuff in the past. Please bear with me. If all else fails, I see about sending them to you directly.

Again, thanks for your help.

GT

 

[GT]

I can't get the pictures on the forum, can I send them to you?

GT

 

[GT]

Oh . . .

Nevermind. They are working after all. Here's one more for perspective.

GT

 

[Allivymar]

You know, looking at those pics (assuming the colors are close to true) I'm wondering if the cloud is not bacterial in nature, but an algae bloom. It looks kinda green to me...not white. If I'm correct, its not a big deal and easy to deal with. Is a result of too much light and reducing light will help rid the tank of the bloom; does that tank get any sunlight? How long are the tank lights on (if you use them)?

I looked at the pics of your fish as well, and I don't see any obvious ich spots. There appears to be a missing scale or 2 near the left gill plate, but can't be totally sure thats what it is due to pic quality and may simply be the way the scales are reflecting. The film is also not very apparent either, although it certainly can be a symptom of ich as the fish will increase mucus production to help combat the parasites.

I have to admit, months of treatment is very unusual. Especially since you have done so many different types of treatments. Something is very wrong here. Ich spots generally don't fade in and out, and usually aren't found under the skin without protruding and should not be THAT resistant. I'm at a loss tho...I hope someone else will chime in here with some ideas/suggestions.

I'd suggest keeping up those water changes. You don't want ANY ammonia or nitrites in the water

 

[GT]

Sorry about the picture quality, this forum strictly limits the picture sizes. If you are interested, I can send you much better/bigger ones that show the film a lot better. I could also send a picture of our 200 gallon tank with the koi. I'm kind of proud of him. Any way, the tank with Emea gets no sunlight at all. The window you saw by the tank is completely covered and blocked off. The tank's light is on from 7 am to 9 pm daily and is on the exact same timer as the other three tanks that don't show any symptoms. I suppose that's why we hadn't thought of an algae bloom. I'm a bit color blind so my wife just scrutinized it. She says if anything, the film and the cloud in the water are gray. What really bothers me is that we totally changed that water with water from our 200 gallon tank and it grayed out in under two days.

Emea's left gill plate is folded forward, good catch!. It has been that way here whole life, even when we got her as a baby. My wife says her gills are very red and not a healthy pink. I don't know why, but given the terrible amount of time she's been treated, I'm not surprised. We've been trying for so long to help him, we've gotten very frustrated. I feel for him every time I look at him.

Thanks for your help. Believe it or not, you've given me far more discussion on this than anybody else. I've tried other sites and other experts, only to get no reply or the typical, "you water sucks, fix it." My wife and I have learned a great deal and are very proud and attentive to our fish (some think that makes us a bit looney), but that's the way it is. We are planning to build a new home with a very large aquarium for our koi. He's over two feet long now and a part of the family. Don't worry, we'll keep up the water changes and continue our search for an answer for Emea, but its damn frustrating and we are desperate for new ideas.

Thanks again,

GT

 

[Alivymar]

Ok. I messed up my account trying to add my email addy LOL Its available now if you want to send some pics They may or may not go thru; its a hotmail acc't and pretty full atm LOL

You can also make a gallery here; this way you can have ALL your pics here and just send people to see em saves time and this way you don't have to keep sending pics, just the URL. If you click on the "view my gallery" under my nick, you can see some of my piggies

In regards to the tank, there has got to be something IN the tank, or something missing, to cause it to bloom like that. Especially since the water came from another tank which is not having issues. Just to list what I'm thinking (and its not an answer, more of a brain storm):

Algae bloom: maybe 14 hours of light is a bit much for that tank right now? Especially since the water parameters have been so varied of late due to all the meds and treatments.

Bacterial bloom: Possibly the heterotrophic bacteria are havin a party? Again, the meds may have thrown things off balance, and given them a chance to go to town. Of course they would need a food supply; organic waste is a favorite. I wonder if a cut down on feedings (maybe once every day or 2) would decrease those levels? Assuming of course, that IS the prob.

Just a thought, but maybe activated carbon if you aren't using it, or maybe a diatomic filter to help pull the crud out of the water. Theres an article bout it here: http://www.totallyfish.com/tips/cloudywater.html

Keep in mind nitrite poisoning can be displayed by bright red or purple gills. So can Gill Disease, although I don't think thats an issue here. However, you do have measurable levels of nitrite; I don't think they're THAT high, but if your fish is already stressed, well...its something to consider.

Heh and no. I don't consider you loony. If you are, so are the folks who post here and on the many other aquaria forums LOL and I don't think theres enough psychologists to handle that kinda load anyway. I LURVE my fishies and have spent hundreds on keeping them happy n healthy (and I'm only doing FW atm!). Non-fish people don't seem to get it; their loss IMHO.

 

[Allivymar]

Hrmm. May have come across something while looking up some info for another post that may be applicable here.

In this link on ich: http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cach...6fs.pdf+ich+salt+"ppt"+-marine&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 I came across this statement:

"Researchers have discovered that the Ich parasite can multiply directly by dividing underneath the fish’s top skin layer, bypassing the usual three-stage life cycle. When this occurs, one can see multiple Ich cells of similar size lined up or in clumps underneath the thin layer of host cells (Fig. 4). Ich is not treatable when it becomes established to this degree and reproduces in this manner, because it does not need to leave the host where it would ordinarily be vulnerable to treatment.

Ack. I wonder if this is whats happening with your moor? I have my fingers crossed that its not; the only way I could see treating this would be the high temp/salt tx, and again, I don't know if moors can handle the temps required for that (above 86f).