Black patches on gourami

[handruin]

I have a 55 gal. freshwater tank with 24 fish, including my powder blue gourami. The tank is roughly 77 degrees.

Yesterday, I noticed that s(he) is very lethargic and seems to retreat to tight spaces and not move very much. This morning, I noticed black patches on both sides of him/her. Right behind each eye and before the pectoral fin, there is a long black strip and a black dot behind it. There seems to be some discoloration of the bottom fin as well. I took some pictures, although it might be difficult to see.

http://www.handruin.com/link_img/gourami1.jpg
http://www.handruin.com/link_img/gourami2.jpg

All other fish are active and eating as normal and show no discoloration (including one other gourami).

Can anyone provide some advice about what this might be and how to treat it? I looked through some disease descriptions, and had a hard time matching this to anything. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

[oscarbreeder]

Sorry.
Couldnt get the links to your pics to work.

[Allivymar]

Its really hard to see whats going on in those pics. Is it possible to get a good full profile shot (I know, its tough when they hide)?

Black areas are usually scabs, although rarely they can be caused by the larvae of flukes. Those guys are usually seen in wild fish or tanks with snails. I'm wondering if he got the snot kicked out of him.What sort of fish do you have in the tank? And what are the water parameters (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate)?

[handruin]

Unfortunately, those were the best pictures we could get. The fish is getting worse. It is currently leaning on a plant at the bottom of the tank. Its coloring is fading slightly and the black spots are still there.

The other fish in the tank are:
1 zebra danio
6 harlequin rasboras
2 small bala sharks
1 gourami
9 albino glowlites
2 diamond tetras
2 siamese algae eaters

I have never seen either of the gouramis be bothered by the other fish. They mainly kept to themselves in a less popular corner of the tank. The gourami (along with the other gourami, glowlites, and tetras) were added to the tank approx. 2.5 months ago. The other fish have been in the tank for over 6 months.

Parameters are:

Nitrite - 0ppm
Ammonia - 0ppm
Ph - 7.6 (although different kits have differing readings)

I, unfortunately, don't have a nitrate test kit, so I don't know about that.

Hopefully this helps. Please let me know if you think of anything.

THANKS!

[Allivymar]

I'm sorta at a loss; your water parameters look fine and I'm guessing there hasn't been a change in pH (the other fish would prob show signs as well anyway). Sounds like all is peaceful atm, unless they've been fighting when you're away.

I suggest isolating the sick one in a QT tank. It may or may not help, but if a fish is ill its best to remove it from the rest so as not to exacerbate the prob in the tank. It also might give it a better chance to get better as stress will be greatly reduced (no tank mates to deal with, no competition for space or food). I hate to recommend meds when I don't know whats going on; some meds are really heavy duty (most parasiticals) and could make things worse if they aren't whats needed.

*edit*

OK..went and did a little research. Came up with "black patch necrosis" which is a symptom of Columnaris, although not an often seen one. Columnaris, aka Mouth Fungus, is not actually a fungal infection (it sometimes looks like one) but a bacterial infection caused by the flexibacter bacteria. It comes in a chronic and an acute form; my guess is your poor guy has the acute, which unfortunately kills quickly. Definitely get him isolated ASAP and gets some broad spectrum antibiotics in the tank; kanacyn is one. No promises, but maybe with immediate treatment he might be able to pull thru.

[handruin]

Maybe these images will help with the diagnosis. I was able to take some new pictures because I think the poor guy is slowing down a lot. Notice the dark black lines around the gills. He/She (not sure which) seems to be propped up in the plant, but is still breathing.

pic 1
pic 2
pic 3

[oscarbreeder]

Alli,
Glad you found this thread because I couldn't get the links to the pics to work and you seem to have all the answers....lol

Handruin,
Take alli's advice she knows her fish.
I really hope this works out for you I hate to see anyones fish not make it.
Keep us posted.
Good luck.

[Allivymar]

Much better pics; thats a really sick fish. It looks like its emaciated as well, and the tail is a bit blurry, but is it kinda frayed?

I grabbed this from http://aquanic.org/courses/aq448/diseases/bacteria.htm "Gill infections are less common but more serious. Columnaris begins at the tips of the lamellae and causes a progressive necrosis that may extend to the base of the gill arch." To me, that looks like whats going on...its certainly located in the gill area.

I would definitely go with an antibiotic; it doesn't look like a parasitical infection to me. Thing is, oral antibiotics would be the thing for him, but I'm guessing he isn't eating. You'll have to go with one that can be added to the tank water; mind you, it won't be as effective, but its worth a try. Isolate him and treat with antibacterials ASAP is my suggestion. I have my fingers crossed for you (and him!).

[handruin]

Thanks for all of the information and advice.

I have never had an isolation tank before. I plan to get one tonight and set it up for him. Can you recommend a size (I was thinking 2-5 gal.), filter/heater requirements, and whether water from the current tank should be used.

Also, should the main tank be treated with antibiotics as well as the isolation tank?

[Allivymar]

5g is fine; I use a 10g and have one lone neon in there atm (poor thing looks lost).

A QT (IMHO) needs a couple of things: A filter and a heater. A 5g only needs a small heater (maybe 25 watts) and a simple filter (no need to go all out; just get something that will grab debris from the water - you are not looking to start a nitrifying bacterial colony so no need for bio-wheels or anything fancy).

You could even use a new, well rinsed, largish Tupperware container if you needed to. No decor, except in the case of fish like loaches which need a hiding place. No gravel. I would actually use fresh treated water and not from the tank; just match pH (as close as you can - no more then .2 or .3) and temps. Its quite possible the ill one just doesn't have a strong enough immune system and thats why he got hit yet the others seem ok (I would keep a VERY close eye on the rest tho, and if there are ANY signs THEN treat the main tank); I wouldn't want to expose him to any more bacteria.

You will need to test the water daily for any nitrogenous waste, and water change accordingly - you don't want ANY ammonia or nitrites in there (although there prob won't be much considering its one lone fish). If you need to water change you'll have to dose the meds accordingly. If they say dose daily, then don't worry; it usually means its lost effectiveness in 24 hrs and thats why you have to redose.

[handruin]

Thank you very much for the information. We purchased a small 5 Gal. acrylic kit for about $30 USD and it included everything (light, filter, pump) except a heater so we bought a small heater (an thermometer) to go with this tank. We planned to keep this as an isolation unit, so we didn't go all-out on filter/pump etc.

I hope the little guy gets better, we're prepping the tank now.

Thanks again!

[Allivymar]

No prob; I just hope the lil guy makes it! Keep us updated.

And welcome to Aquariumadvice btw LOL

[handruin]

Thank you for the warm (and helpful) welcome.

[handruin]

I have to ask another question.

In this new tank, we powered off the filter because it seemed to be causing the gourami some stress. In our 55 gal. tank, he was propping himself against things because it seemed as though a great deal of effort was needed to keep from moving.

Long story short, this new 5 gal tank seems to have a current that is pestering him. It seemed as though he can't relax and was fighting hard to stay in one spt. Since he is sick, he doesn't swim very well and it was making me worried that this would stress him out.

We didn't buy rocks and things for it, but I put in a couple of extra plastic plants we had sitting around to give some type of environment. Is it really bad to leave the filter off?

[Allivymar]

Tough call. You really want the filter to rid the tank of debris, but if he's having a hard time with the current...

If its a HOB filter, you can clean bit of washcloth (rinsed really well to remove detergents or anything) and ducttape it to the outflow; it should reduce the water movement. If its an in tank sorta filter, a piece of filter sponge over the outflow may help. Understand, these are all off the top of my head; maybe someone has a better suggestion. Or maybe bunching the plastic plants in from of the outflow would break it up enough?

[handruin]

I think I figured out a solution. I placed the plastic tube from our gravel vacuum inside the new tank and the gourami swam inside it to relieve him from the stress of the current. He propped himself up against the side and it looked like it is making him happier. I hope it works... This tank came with a HOB filter system so I'll try your wash cloth idea if the plastic tube doesn't work...thanks for the suggestion.

[handruin]

Our gourami is still alive in the 5 gal rescue tank, however I'm very concerned. The fish has not eaten anything since the day before we moved him to the new tank. (last saturday) We've tried both flake food and frozen brine shrimp.

All day long he lies on his side at the bottom of the tank and has little to no energy to move around. Almost all of the orange/blue coloring is gone from this pretty fish.

Color aside, I just want him to survive, but I feel bad that I'm making him suffer. We are using the medication as prescribed, but it doesn't seem to help. I'm actually very surprised he's stayed alive this long. It's almost as though he's paralyzed, but he continues to breath.

Our main tank seems to be fine so far. I haven't noticed any signs of other fish being sick, but time will tell. Our other gourami gave us a scare when I got home from work today. It look like he/she was stuck in a plant which has not happened before. We gave the plant a little nudge and the gourami may have been sleeping or something because it moved right along. I'll be keeping an eye on him/her.

[Allivymar]

Fish can go a week or so without food; if he was well fed before he's not actually starving yet.

Thing is, what sort of quality of life does he have.

Before making any hard n fast decisions tho, what are the water parameters if the 5g? If there is any ammonia/nitrites that could be part of the prob (even if you used cycled filter media, the meds probably killed off the good bacteria as well). How often are you water changing/ vaccuming up the uneaten food? Water parameters go bad very quickly in a small tank. If you are not water changing daily (right BEFORE you add meds of course) that may help. Good fresh treated water thats the same temp can really help.

[handruin]

He was well fed before this happened. (at least I think he was)

The water parameters of the 5 gal. tank weren't very good. (I'm sorry to admit) We did not use a cycled media filter because the new tank wouldn't fit the one from our big tank so we used the carbon filter that came with the new 5 gal. tank.

Ammonia was 1.0 ppm
PH 7.6
Nitrite 0.0 ppm


I immediately did a 50% water change and tried my best to match water temperature. It changed by about 1 degree, but it will gradually go back to 76 degrees F.

I waited about 10-15 minutes and tested ammonia again and it was down in the 0 to .25 ppm range. I then gave the fish his next dose of meds.

I will continue to do water changes every day until he either improves and I will monitor the parameters more often.

[Allivymar]

Yeah, a 1 or 2 degree temp diff shouldn't be a problem. I kinda had a feeling the parameters were off; those small tanks can be a pain. Hopefully with the water changes keeping the ammonia down, and the meds, you will see some improvement in the poor guy soon.