Bolivian Ram flashing & spitting out food?

[hbeth82]

I've had several Bolivian Rams since October 2009. Lately I've noticed one of them, Bernard, flashing (rubbing against stuff, I think that's what it's called), spitting out food, and being extremely territorial. He may be taking in a little bit of food but I've tried sinking pellets and brine shrimp and it looks like everything that is taken in quickly comes back out. He doesn't seem to be really attacking any of the other fish, just actively keeping them at a distance. Also been attacking the "other fish" on the other side of the glass. I haven't noticed any sores or injuries and nobody else in the tank seems to be having any problems. I also had very similar problems with another one of my bolivian rams (discussed on this thread) and had to euthanize him a year ago tomorrow (Friday).

As far as I can tell, everything in the tank seems to be fine:
water temp 78-80
0 ammonia & nitrite
nitrate < 20ppm

Any ideas on what could be wrong or what I can do?

Thanks

[dkpate]

Well I have heard of fish flashing to mark territories. My sister in laws blue johanni did it all the time.
I could be wrong though, and I hope someone with more experience chimes in!

[hbeth82]

Thanks, you could well be right on the flashing & fussing, as he's typically been the most aggressive bully of the pack.

It's really him spitting out food that has me the most worried. The other ram I lost did the exact same thing, sucked food in then spit it out whole. They mostly get Super Cichlid sinking pellets which are pretty small so doubt that he's getting any food from just having the pellet in his mouth for a few seconds. Looking around more, I've found that other people have had similar problems with their rams, example 1 & example 2. Unfortunately neither thread really offers much advice on what to do or what might cause the problem. . .

[HN1]

I've seen fish get bored with a food and give up on it before. You may want to try a bit more variety and see if he responds. If he spits out a bloodworm, you'll know you have real problems. For the territoriality, I'd try to substantially rearrange the decor and create as many line of sight breaks throughout the tank as possible.

[hbeth82]

Originally Posted by HN1

If he spits out a bloodworm, you'll know you have real problems.

The other ram I mentioned that died a year ago behaved the same way with bloodworms, spitting them and never seeming to actually eat any. Bernard (current troublesome fish) doesn't seem to eat brine shrimp any better than regular food but I haven't had any bloodworms lately. I'll try offering some frozen bloodworms this weekend and see how that goes. I've also tried flake food and peas but he doesn't seem too interested in either of those.

[hbeth82]

Originally Posted by HN1

If he spits out a bloodworm, you'll know you have real problems.

He's doing the same thing with the frozen bloodworms Also tried Hikari carnivore pellets yesterday and he picked one up but didn't appear to chew on it at all, just spit it right back out, but in the past he's typically gnawed on them for a while, the gobbled up the pieces. He's also spent more time in hiding today and had to search to find him when he's usually up front in his sandbox.

A bit of Google-ing got me to a thread on another forum where someone mentioned having the same problem with a yellow lab. The OP stated that he used Jungle labs Parasite Clear and Pepso Food and within a week or so, the fish was back to normal and harassing his tankmates. Any thoughts on using the Jungle labs Parasite Clear and Pepso Food as a treatment in a 10gal?

Thanks for any advice!

[dkpate]

It couldn't hurt! I would use just the anti-parasitic food though, I am sure he is already stressed enough.

[hbeth82]

Originally Posted by dkpate

It couldn't hurt! I would use just the anti-parasitic food though, I am sure he is already stressed enough.

Thanks. Do you mean use anti-parasitic food as a substitute to QT & medication? I hate re-locating fish to a QT (and dealing with another tank) but not sure whether he would get any of the anti-parasitic food I have as this stuff takes a long time to sink and he very seldom comes to the top. Plus, since' he's not eating, would it even make much of a difference? Not sure.

[dkpate]

Can you try putting it on the end of a toothpick after it's been soaked and then putting it right by his face? You can try soaking it in garlic juice too.

The reason I think the food works better is because it's actually ingested, whereas the meds you put in the water are absorbed through the skin and gills.

[hbeth82]

Turns out I was wrong, the food I have is anti-bacterial. Can you recommend any particular brand? Haven't found any that people report much success from using.

[dkpate]

I only tried the Jungle brand, but I was too late. I got them because they were in pellet form, and easier to soak and feed.

[hbeth82]

Sorry to hear that. I was able to find the Jungle Lab's Anti-Parasite food and offered it last night and tonight, and used garlic juice with tonight's feeding but nobody ate any of it - even the cory cats spit it out! Decided to keep trying with the medicated food but am also going to treat the tank (hopefully easier than a QT on both Bernard & myself) with Jungle's Parasite Clear. Found this schedule that I think I'll use, though not sure about the Epsom salts:
"Dosed first day, waited 48 hours, did 30% water change then dosed again, waited 24 hours, did 30% water change then dosed again for the third and final time, waited 48 hours then did 60% water change and added carbon to remove the rest of the meds, all the while I maintained the salts by adding in the amount I was taking away with the water changes."

Does all that sound ok?

[dkpate]

Sounds better than nothing! Maybe you can try soaking the regular food in the meds.

[hbeth82]

Originally Posted by dkpate

Maybe you can try soaking the regular food in the meds.

Thanks, that's a good idea. I think I remember reading somewhere that somebody broke up the medication tablets, added a little water, & soaked the regular fish food in this.

Do you think the Epsom salts would be a bad idea since I have cory cats or would it be safe to go with 1/2 the normal dose?

[dkpate]

You can try baths, if you think they'll help. I know there is a lady on here who knows how to do them (I don't), all I remember is that you put them in there for a 1/2 hour.

[hbeth82]

Bernard actually ate a little bit tonight! He probably ate 3-5 of the little Omega sinking pellets. After a while, he went back to spitting out food but at least he ate something. Still doing another day of treatment (3rd) with the Parasite Guard. Changing about 20-30% of the water and adding 5 of the tablets. Thinking about a 4th treatment but not sure if that would be a good idea. Thoughts?

[dkpate]

I treated longer the last time I used Melafix, it said I was able to on the bottle. What do the meds you have say? If you can't find anywhere where it doesn't say to ONLY do the 3 days, I would go for it. You can also quit treating, put the carbon back in, and see if he perks up even more. He might be stressed from the meds, I don't know.

I am so glad to hear he ate something!!! I wonder if fishes stomachs shrink like people's do?

[hbeth82]

I'd kinda wondered the same thing, if he wasn't used to eating so now it's hard for him to eat anything?

He ate very little this evening, maybe 2 pellets at best, and spit out quite a bit. Feel awful watching him chase down food, spit it out, find another piece, spit that out as well, over and over again. Also lost one of my false julii cory cats this morning (had them for over a year) and not sure what happened so it's just not been a good day. I've wondered if it might have been due to the medication or epsom salts.

As for the meds, for most uses it says it can be used 3 times but for certain problems (anchor worms & lice) it can be used 4 times. They got treatment 3 yesterday so I'm not sure whether it would be okay to do another one tomorrow or not.

Also, do I need to use carbon or is a big water change sufficient? Haven't used the stuff for so long I'm not sure if I have any.

Thanks.

[hbeth82]

Bernard didn't eat anything this evening, I'll try bloodworms again tomorrow night. Any other ideas on how to help him?

[SeverumGuy]

My bolivian ram was doing the same thing a couple weeks ago. He did it for about 4 days and finally passed away. I found him sucked up agains the filter. I have a Penguin 350 and he was sucked against the top part. I think he was swimming up there and just didn't have the energy to get off. Poor guy. I still have my German blue ram though =D