Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > Freshwater > Freshwater & Brackish - Unhealthy Fish
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 05-11-2012, 01:03 AM   #1
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
jlbfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 806
Question Columnaris Triple Sulfa didn't work. What next Jungle Fungus or Furan 2?

I am pretty sure that the neon tetras I have have cotton mouth. All the fish in the tank are becoming infected. They are on week 2 in a quarantine tank.

I used Triple Sulfa because that is what I could find at the store. I ordered Jungle Fungus Clear first then ordered Furan 2.

My Triple Sulfa treatment is over tomorrow but there has been no improvement. I have heard good things about both of these meds. Any advice or opinions?

Thanks
__________________

__________________
jlbfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 01:09 AM   #2
Aquarium Advice Obsessed
 
Mumma.of.two's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sunny Queensland, Australia
Posts: 11,142
First you need to be sure what it is. Columnaris (bacterial) or fungus.
Quote:
Bacterial External Infections, Columnaris (specific to F. columnaris); Often Misnamed "Mouth Fungus", Fish Tuberculosis/TB Skin Infection (specific to Mycobacterium spp.)
Pathogen/Cause: Various organisms. Positive diagnosis not possible outside of lab culture & microscopy (not practical for most hobbyists). Gram positive: exceedingly rare in FW fish; small handful of SW species, but most primarily do not attack skin. Gram negative: Flexibacter columnaris, Aeromonas spp., Pseudomonas spp., Vibrio spp., Salmonella spp., many others not listed. Non-stainable: Mycobacterium spp., mostly M. piscium & M. marinum
Physical Signs: White, clear, red/pink areas of necrosis. Occasionally slightly ragged/fuzzy appearence. Inflammed patches and sometimes deeper ulcers develop. Various patterns of appearence and presentation. Columnaris usually presents near the head and sides of the body and is often mistaken for a fungus; it is characteristically white and patchy.
Behavioral Signs: Various: lethargy, hiding behavior, "hanging", clamped fins, loss of appetite, general constitutional signs.
Potential Treatment: Broad spectrum antibiotics. (Examples include but are not limited to: Maracyn I & II, Jungle Binox, Aquatronics Kanacyn, etc.). Frequent water changes a must to improve quality. Tuberculosis is difficult to treat because it attacks intracellularly.
Other Notes: Frequent water changes a must to improve quality. Test for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates. Columnaris perhaps one of the most common skin infections of pet fish (livebearer fish and certain other fish especially susceptible). Specifically for F. columnaris, read this article by Dr. Barb. Fish tuberculosis (though not transmitted by the same species that causes human tuberculosis) can be transmitted as zoonosis called "fish tank granuloma" on hands with open wounds (again, another article by Dr. Barb discusses this issue. Use gloves if reaching in the tank with suspect animals.
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_...ation.html#ERM

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html

If it is indeed columnaris then you need to treat with a gram negative antibiotic such as maracyn 2. Salt and lowered temperature helps also.
__________________

Mumma.of.two is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 01:43 AM   #3
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
jlbfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 806
Honestly I can't tell. It is on the mouth of a neon tetra like a milk mustache. It started with one. Then another one got it and the other 2 have a bump on their mouth so I think they are getting it as well.

I treated with Pima/Mela fix combo with no luck. Got Triple Sulfa which was supposed to help it (while ordering Jungle Fungus and then Furan2 after reading other recommendations). Triple Sulfa seems to have done nothing.

I haven't used salt because they are neons.

The tank has been having daily water changes of 50% since the fish started showing the problems. Otherwise it was weekly. I tested frequently (at times daily) and the ammonia and nitrites were all kept at 0. They went up not long after the fish went in to .25 I did a water change and since then they have been ok.

It may be a bit over crowded it is a quarantine tank 10 gallon aqua clear 20
10 black neons and 5 neons. They have been in for almost 2 weeks but some of the neons at the store were a little iffy. I thought I saw one flashing AFTER I purchased the ones I had so I am assuming this was an issue before they got here. Of course that could be a bad assumption.

water is room temp so from 75-78

One fish seems to be hiding otherwise they seem ok. They are eating (less today).

I 'think' triple sulfa was supposed to treat gram negative bacteria and some gram positive. I was tempted to use the Jungle Fungus clear because it claims to clear fungus and bacteria related conditions so it might take care of both.

Trying to figure out what is on the tiny mouth of this tiny fish is driving me nutty. I am enjoying having fish and starting in the hobby but this is my second group of sick fish. The first I got with the tank these I dunno if it was my fault or not so I am getting a bit frustrated.

Thanks for the links I read them over and I am reading some of websites at the bottom too. I just need to figure out a game plan for tomorrow.

I am reading the Saprolegnia likes lowers pH our water is naturally an 8.0 (just tested to be sure and it is 8.0)
__________________
jlbfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 02:01 AM   #4
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Convict2161's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 14,818
I had a horrible bout with columnaris and what saved my fish after losing 15 was Mumma of two and her on point advice.

This is what I did after identifying it as 100% columnaris.

Lowered temp to 72
Took carbon out
Kosher salt 2x's a day
Maracyn 2 dosed per directions
Didn't perform water change until after treatment was over

Side note. My case was really bad, I needed to go another round of Maracyn 2.

But in the end, it brought back 3 from near death but I did lose 15 during the bout. It hit hard and fast!! I tested water 2-3x's a day and just made sure I dosed the kosher salt 2x's a day and kept the temp low.

Good luck.
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

"When creating an aqua scape, strive for the beauty of imperfection, as its art and there is no wrong or right, it's left open for interpretation" James Findley
Convict2161 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 02:18 AM   #5
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
jlbfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 806
The identification is what I am having a problem with. I wouldn't say it is fast moving ATM but could be picking up. All I have is a milk mustache and one fish hiding and possible fin rot.
__________________
jlbfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 02:32 AM   #6
Aquarium Advice Obsessed
 
Mumma.of.two's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sunny Queensland, Australia
Posts: 11,142
Neons and salt is over rated IMO. I've had them at a full dose before without issue. I don't suppose it's possible to get a picture? Has the fish had the funny lip the whole time or has it just happened? Something that could have happened is the triple sulfa could have slowed it right down but not cured it.
Mumma.of.two is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 10:08 AM   #7
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
jlbfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumma.of.two
Neons and salt is over rated IMO. I've had them at a full dose before without issue. I don't suppose it's possible to get a picture? Has the fish had the funny lip the whole time or has it just happened? Something that could have happened is the triple sulfa could have slowed it right down but not cured it.
I'll try to get a pic. It started with a weird bump on his mouth and now this white on top of or in his mouth.
__________________
jlbfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 12:29 PM   #8
jlk
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
jlk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: philadelphia suburbs
Posts: 11,119
I read your other posts regarding this issue. What you have to keep in mind is that theres over 90 strains of flexibacter (what causes columnaris)- some strains are very lethal & will kill immediately, others are not as aggressive but will eventually kill as well. Fungus looks like tufts of hair growing- if this is not what you are seeing, then your likely dealing with a bacterial infection. I have been seeing quite a few cases where Maracyn 2 is not effective against columnaris- this is likely due to antibiotic resistance combined with some other factors. If you going to knock this out, you will need to treat with a decent antibiotic. I would suggest treating with kanamycin combined with salt & lowered temps. Kanamcyin sulfate will knock out your good bacteria so you need to be viligent on testing your water parameters & doing water changes as needed. Its available from National Fish Pharmaceuticals under the name KanaPro or from American Aquarium Products/Amazon as Seachems Kanaplex.
__________________
jlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 01:23 PM   #9
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
jlbfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 806
Yikes 90 strains makes it hard to treat! I do not quite see hair coming from it. It 'could' be fuzzy but I can't tell no good pics. Luckily the fish (and I believe at least all the neons have it) are still eating. I am doing daily water changes. I'm ok with killing the bb in the hospital tank and doing water changes religiously I already have been. LOL

So I am not going to do the last day of Triple Sulfa I assume that is ok.

I am getting some Furan 2 today and I found kanaplex locally and am going to pick it up. I have read that these can be used together. Should I just do that?

Ok so I will look up how much salt to add

I am not sure how to lower temps other than to put a fan on the tank. If I do anything else I am afraid it will cause temps to spike and fall and that can't be good.

I can turn the air down to about 74 but that is it and that is pricey. LOL
__________________
jlbfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 01:40 PM   #10
jlk
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
jlk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: philadelphia suburbs
Posts: 11,119
Yes, you can use Furan2 with kanamycin safely. I would aim for @.1% salt if everybody is ok with it (approx 1 teaspoon per gal). Premix it in some tank water & add it gradually over a 48hr period of time. Ok- if you cant easily lower the temps (i thought there was heater), dont worry about it. You can blowing a fan over the surface & see if this helps. Good luck & keep us posted!
__________________
jlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 02:52 PM   #11
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
jlbfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 806
So the guy at the fish store said to finish out the Triple Sulfa that means I won't start kanaplex/furan 2 till tomorrow night. He also said to soak their food in it. Would you start today or tomorrow? Is that what you recommend too?
__________________
jlbfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 03:03 PM   #12
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
LyndaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 5,816
When my tank went through columnaris, which is highly contagious, I culled the two symptomatic fish and did a water change, dosing at half-dose salt and nobody else in the tank got sick.
__________________
75: blood parrots, featherfin cat, emperor tetras, turquoise rainbowfish, BN plecos, japanese trapdoor; 46: WCMM, gold inca snails, ghost, bamboo & amano shrimp, kuhli loaches, rummynose & ember tetras, endlers, platies, flame gourami, guppies; 16: pygmy, peppered, loxozonus corys, otos, assassins, RCS ... ~ Research PRIOR to purchase.... ~
LyndaB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 03:04 PM   #13
jlk
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
jlk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: philadelphia suburbs
Posts: 11,119
Well, the first thing you will need to do is remove the triple sulfa from your water- do a big water change & run new carbon for a few hours. Finsihing the triple sulfa is sage advice- even though it may not be effective against what you are treating, a full course of antibiotics is always recommended to prevent antibiotic resistance in other strains of bacteria. I dont think soaking your food is necessary here- kanamycin is one of the few antibiotics that are skin-absorbed by fish. If you were dealing with an internal infection, it would be a different story. Just my opinion anyway!
__________________
jlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 04:47 PM   #14
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
jlbfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyndaB View Post
When my tank went through columnaris, which is highly contagious, I culled the two symptomatic fish and did a water change, dosing at half-dose salt and nobody else in the tank got sick.
We discussed culling. I figured since 5 of them had been at the store together and they had all been in a QT tank for a week together it was too late. Although based on what you say I may be mistaken. I think I will probably do one more med treatment see how it is going and then decide from there :/ If we need to we will.
__________________
jlbfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 05:09 PM   #15
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
LyndaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 5,816
Don't get me wrong. I'm not completely opposed to meds. I try not to use them for anything as I prefer natural methods but sometimes you have no choice. That said, when it's something highly contagious and the possibility of losing the entire tank is strong, I take a different approach. In my case, it worked. It might not for someone else. But it's still something to think about. When you do consider that it's for the good of the tank as a whole, sometimes culling is the right thing to do.

Hope it all works out for you.
__________________
75: blood parrots, featherfin cat, emperor tetras, turquoise rainbowfish, BN plecos, japanese trapdoor; 46: WCMM, gold inca snails, ghost, bamboo & amano shrimp, kuhli loaches, rummynose & ember tetras, endlers, platies, flame gourami, guppies; 16: pygmy, peppered, loxozonus corys, otos, assassins, RCS ... ~ Research PRIOR to purchase.... ~
LyndaB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2012, 05:14 PM   #16
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
jlbfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyndaB View Post
Don't get me wrong. I'm not completely opposed to meds. I try not to use them for anything as I prefer natural methods but sometimes you have no choice. That said, when it's something highly contagious and the possibility of losing the entire tank is strong, I take a different approach. In my case, it worked. It might not for someone else. But it's still something to think about. When you do consider that it's for the good of the tank as a whole, sometimes culling is the right thing to do.

Hope it all works out for you.
I totally understand. This seems slow moving to the naked eye. Hopefully it is going on slowly inside as well. I am nervous about losing the whole tank as well. :/
__________________
jlbfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2012, 12:41 AM   #17
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
jlbfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 806
I have a question. Is it the FISH that are contagious or is it in the tank? Would it do any good to separate the fish that I can tell are infected and treat both tanks?
__________________
jlbfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2012, 02:47 AM   #18
Aquarium Advice Obsessed
 
Mumma.of.two's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sunny Queensland, Australia
Posts: 11,142
It would be in the tank as well as the fish. Your better off treating the lot.
Mumma.of.two is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2012, 02:52 AM   #19
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
jlbfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 806
Ok that is what I was going on. Good to know. I'm slowly upping the salt and will try a new treatment tomorrow. Thanks!
__________________
jlbfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2012, 05:34 PM   #20
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
jlbfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 806
I've been adding salt over 48 hrs and running carbon for 24. Before I start the new meds can I just do a 50% water change?
__________________

__________________
jlbfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
column, columnaris, fungus, jungle

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off








» Photo Contest Winners







All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.