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Old 01-13-2017, 11:47 AM   #1
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Dead Fish and counting

So I'm fairly new to this site and forum so I have yet to know the general audience I'm writing to or the community in here, but I just have a few concerns about my current tank. So to start here are things about my tank (just anything general or notable)

-It's a 20 Gallon tank
-Heated
-Has a filter
-Has an air pump and stones

-There used to be minimal algae but it seems like more algae is growing then usually and the algae used to be almost invisible or brownish black and now it it's a mixture of that and dark/bright green algae which is growing everywhere

-I do water changes like regularly

-Substrate is straight up sand, (I didn't add anything underneath and it's just enough so that you can't see the bottom if the sand is shaken) also I was fairly new and my tank was already established to add more sand/substrates

- I have a piece of wood, not sure what it's called but it's brown and I had to boil it before putting it in as it would turn the water brown and such

-The only plants in my tank are Java Ferns and like 2 Anubis which are attached to the wood and the ferns are in the sand,

-I have a light on for about 7am-7pm

-My tank is/was inhabited by a Beta for the first 6 months then I added 3 White Cloud Minnows and eventually added some plants (forgot what they're called) but they sometimes float and you find them naturally in ponds (which I did)

-due to the thing above, my tank was infested with Malysian Trumpet Snails
-Eventually I bought an assasin snail which seemed to have worked And that's pretty much it.

I've had it for about 3 years now and the fish have been in there for two (minnows)

Yesterday last night I came To my tank and noticed none of the fish were present, I searched around and eventually the Berta fish poked its head around and swam up and then hid again (normal behavior at night)

I then decided after about 15 minutes to reach in and move around plants to search for them, I push away some Ferns and I saw the minnows upside down come out underneath them and float up to the surface the minnow tried to move but it seemed paralyzed,

it eventually stopped trying to move and was upside down breathing rapidly at the surface, I put it in a separate container that I placed floating on top of the water, then I found the second one with its back very arched and it seemed like as if it's insides broke and it was moving but in very small increments. It concerned me cause usually me even reaching my hand in would make them squirm and disperce,

it wouldn't even make an effort to move far away. I placed it in a container as well, it began trying to swim but stayed at the bottom of the container. Eventually I found the third minnow which squeeze s instead into a corner in between the wood and the air stone (very tight space) I thought it was stuck so I moved the stone and it shot up and (like normal) swam around super fast as if it was fine.

So I left it in the tank with the Beta. Eventually I grew tired of watching the fish in the separate tank so I eventually fell asleep (around 12am) I woke up today around 6 and realized the fish upside down had deceased. The other one was very still and moved more but stayed relatively at the bottom. The third minnow I couldn't see and the beta was fine. I'm currently not at home so I have no clue what is happening or what has happened.

I have no idea what could have caused this. When I bought the fish they looked fully developed and I've had them for about 2+ years. I feel like it's more than age that killed them. And I have no clue. I don't see signs of ick or the beta showing aggressiveness towards them and I always keep the temperature the same even when doing water changes so they don't have heart attacks and die.

I really have no idea and would love feedback and speculations from anyone who knows.

Thank you.
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:07 PM   #2
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Your photo period is pretty long. That could be contributing to algae.

Minnows are cold water fish, so the temperature may have contributed to their short lifespan, but it does seem like something else is happening.

What do you feed these guys? Bent spines can be a sign of vitamin deficiency.

I'm sorry for your loss. I hope we can help you figure out what's up so you can get your tank healthy again.
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:25 PM   #3
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Question ???

Thank you, I really appreciate the help!
The Temperature was kept moderately around 75 Fahrenheit (24 Celsius) to 80 Fahrenheit (27 Celsius) I honestly was not aware that these minnows were cold water, and they seemed to cope fine with the warmer water.

I kept them on a diet of mini pellets and sometimes peas as i had heard peas were good to feed them because they were nutritious (or something of that sort.) Also only one of them I found had a bent spine, the other was completely paralyzed and motionless, and the third one seemed to have been fine and was still active, just purposely in a dark shady area (similar to the other two which I found to have a problem.) ,

I'm not sure, but I think that they know they're not doing well? So they go into dark spaces or into the dark, I'm not sure that's just my guess as I found all three of one (two of which that were sick or half dead) inside and between plants away from the light. I've had them for a fairly long time, I'm not sure how long they're supposed to live for but I suppose it could be old age? I really am clueless
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:36 PM   #4
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Have you changed anything recently? Unfortunately, the other ailment that spinal curvature is a sign of is fish TB.

Also, yes, peas are good for fish once a week or so.
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Old 01-13-2017, 02:40 PM   #5
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Not recently, the last thing I did was a month ago I cleaned the filter cartridge that's pretty much it
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Old 01-13-2017, 03:30 PM   #6
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I'm not sure if it's visible but it's back isn't as arched, however, I seemed to have noticed it's showing more activity and it's moving faster so maybe it's healing? The other one is clearly dead as it isn't breathing, the alive one is breathing but a little fast. Also the minnow that wasn't separated seems to have been hiding all day, exactly like what the others were doing. I'm not sure if I should look for it
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Old 01-13-2017, 04:44 PM   #7
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Hi, I have a lot of experience with this happening to WCMM's. I have kept them for 2 years now with a lot of deaths due to fish TB.
During the summer here in the UK it wasn't just my minnows that got infected with this, it was also 2 guppies I had.

I have researched online about fish TB and the only way once it's in your tank to get rid is start again apparently.
You have done well to get 2 years out of them to be fair.
I currently have 5 in my tank and have had 6 months + without any deaths. I have the previous deaths down to stress caused my temperature fluctuations in the summer which were out of control as we get some very hot weeks and I have no air con.

And the previous post it's correct, white clouds are cold water fish and prefer temps of between 18-22 degrees Celsius. They can be kept in higher temps but this will cause stress over a period of time and reduce life span.
Just be aware as well they are happiest being kept of schools of 5 or more and again any less could cause stress.

In regards to fish TB you can do lots of research online about it but the best thing to do to combat it is keep your fish happy and stress free to boost their immune system and fight off any infections before they become series.
If you need to keep your tank temperature at 26+ I would recommend not getting anymore white clouds.

Hope this helps, any other questions please ask
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Old 01-14-2017, 11:03 AM   #8
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Thank You! I looked up fish TB and definetly my WCMM's showed each and every symptom listed. I'm not sure, how I could prevent it though. Also I used to have 5 of them, however one day I came home and 2 of them were missing.

It was so strange. I looked inside the tank, everywhere, I even had to remove the fish in the tank and the plants and things inside the tank to search for them but they never turned up. I don't have a cat and the aquarium is at a pretty high place with no objects around it for my small dog to climb up it and eat it or something, and it's also kept in a locked room.

currently the two minnows which I deemed "completely fine" are in a dark secluded space in between some plants and under some wood. I'm not sure if I should just remove them or leave them in there. And the only other fish I have is a betta. Not sure if that could possibly get TB??
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Old 01-14-2017, 12:15 PM   #9
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Yes they do that when infected, if they are showing signs of the symptoms then I have not had one fish yet that has survived or recovered. Your may be best culling or just leaving nature to take it course.

I have also had them just got missing before and never turn up.
There are a list of fish in one of the websites I went on that listed the fishes that are susceptible to the infection and I don't think betta is on of them. I have 2 platies that have lived through various deaths of the white clouds.
Like I said in the previous post, the way of combatting against it is to give the fish the correct water conditions of which it is suited, and white clouds are not suited to warmer temperatures.
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:41 PM   #10
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Thank You!

I really appreciate it, yeah they're hiding right now. I just did a water change since I was supposed to do one today and they came out for a few seconds and would stay at the bottom or just hover and behind like shaking and such.

I don't want them to really suffer so I wanted to do that thing where you put them to sleep and they just pass away? Sedation? I'm not sure what it's called or how to preform it but I almost might just let nature fulfill its course and let them slowly decease.

Thanks again! Oh also is there a cure? I know human Tuberculosis there's a cure but would I be able to (for future reference) save any fish? Or would I or should I just let them be?
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:57 PM   #11
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Fish TB isn't actually related to human TB, fortunately. Otherwise you'd be in quarantine! There is no cure.

People have a lot of opinions on the most humane forms of euthanasia, but one of the best is clove oil. It's an overdose of a sedative. There are many good articles on how to do it.
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Old 01-14-2017, 04:47 PM   #12
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Agree above, clove oil is the best. I have some in my cabinet just in case the worst happens. I have used it in the past and it looks peaceful
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