Don't want to ruin a good thing - Betta healing finally

[lauritastlouis]

Hello,

I don't want to ruin a good thing so I thought I'd ask advice before I moved foward.

Long story short ---- Betta had fin rot - treated with Maracyn, got better, then rotted again. Treated with Flagyl (per vet advice) and then combined with Maracyn and Maracyn II - slowed rot, and then got worse.

Did several different fixes per differnt local "specialty shops" (would follow advice, fish got worse, then moved on)

Finally went to a shop, and they said "hey, bring the poor guy in. We wanna see him". They looked and said that he was way to active to be too sick to survive. Tested his water, said it was fine for now. Said that was not inflamed enough for bacterial Fin Rot, was not white and fluffy enough for Fungi. Said it was stress, especially since I was seeing large chunks of tail.

Due to very bad bacterial bloom and that he was in a 10 gallon alone, suggested adding a few cory cats and a snail. told me to stop using ammolock and any chemicals. Said wc 1x a week or if ammonia hit 1.0 or more. (I was always adding something to the water. I swear after 3 months the tank still hasn't cycled). Said I might look into a better filter (i was using the top Fin 10), but if I only added the Corys and snail I could survive with it.

So I got 2 albino cory's and a golden apple snail. and I also introduced a new biowheel (think it is the 150... It's the one that goes to 20 gallons). Ammonia has been a bit high, (hit 2.0 one time, usually hangs out in the .5ppm to 1.0ppm range). It's been 1 week, and even though I included the biomedia "sponge" from the old filter, nitrites and nitrates have been 0, which leads me to belive that the old filter was incapable of sustaining a biofilter, since all the meds I have used are "sworn" to not affect ben. bacteria.

Only other change I've made is that i moved the betta's tank into the living room. It was in my kid's room, and so we had the led daylights on during night and off at night (room fairly well shaded during day).

Within 3 days of having buddies, bacterial bloom was gone, and suddenly mr. betta has TONS of new tail growth. this is with ammonia hitting 2.0ppm. I have done 2 changes. since last Monday. (did 50% water change when I moved the tank last monday since my kid dumped one of my buckets while moving the tank).

So, now that you know what I've got going on (poor betta has been through it all with 2 months of meds, daily water changes etc), what I'd really like to know is a) any thoughts on how a betta with low to non existant water levels could be rotting away like crazy, only to heal with "friends" and higher ammonia levels, and b) if I added blue led lights at night for a moonlight effect, if you think that said blue led's being on all night would affect him?

thus far, we have had our stove light on at night (which provides some illumination to the tank, due to our apartment setup), so our little friend hasn't ever lived in complete darkness. The led lights thus far have still alowed our snail to be active at night, but I am terrified of doing anything to upset the apple cart with our betta. The LFS that I found seemed to think that the chunks of tail I was finding and the rapid fin loss (over 1/4" daily) was due to high stress from constantly messing with the tank. This is a mom n pop place, and he said that when he has kept bettas in the past in 10 gallon tanks, they seemed to do better with a few companions than all alone. This was novel because the other LFS's that I dealt with that seemed to give me advice that hurt the fish more all said that the betta should remain forever alone in his tank.

Thanks! (And sorry for the long monologue!!)

 

[BettaGal]

Was it a chain fish store that told you ammonia at 1 ppm needed a water change? That is completely wrong. Ammonia should be below .25 ppm, ideally 0. That might be why your other levels are still at zero.

By active, is he swimming around, frolicking like a happy little guy without a care in the world? Or is he running into the substrate, rubbing against the substrate, walls, or decor? With ammonia that high, I'm suspecting he's running into stuff. They do this when the ammonia is irritating their gills. Once the ammonia is down, he will act like a happy little guy.

As for friends, I've had two blue veil tail bettas. One of them was a hateful, murderous boy (he would try to attack my ex-boyfriend through the glass) and my other was afraid of a nerite snail. All are different, much like people. Some are social butterflies and like tons of friends, even guppies, I've read some people see, which is beyond docile. Some, like Dmitri was, will try to attack a human.

The fin rot could be anything. When I got Dmitri, who was from Walmart, he came with awful fin rot. It looked like someone had taken tweezers to his tail. There were chunks of his tail in the water with him. What helped him was a lot of clean water. I did bi-weekly water changes and fed him once a day in the morning.

I would suggest starting out with getting the ammonia down. The best thing to do is get your own test kit. Almost everyone here suggests the API master test kit. Liquid ones are MUCH more accurate and reliable. Test strips, in my experience, will say your ammonia hasn't gone down when it has. Fish stores have a tendency to say your levels are fine when they aren't. Mine doesn't only because I walk in and am reading this forum as I look for what I need. They know I know what I'm talking about and when I don't, I've been asking here all day before coming in. Start by getting the ammonia down with multiple 50% water changes. After that, we can see if anything else needs to be done.

 

[Candiceg]

+1 Bettagal lots of water changes. Your tank isn't cycled yet. Maybe your fish store will give you a piece of used filter material to give you a jump start. You are having all these fin rot problems from poor water. Good luck

 

[BettaGal]

+1 Bettagal lots of water changes. Your tank isn't cycled yet. Maybe your fish store will give you a piece of used filter material to give you a jump start. You are having all these fin rot problems from poor water. Good luck

First +1 I've gotten!! Lol. After all those questions I ask, I finally learned something.

If the fish store won't give you some used filter media, there is API quick start (I use) and Seachem Stability (other people recommend, same as quick start). For water conditioner, I use Seachem Prime, which others recommend highly, and will convert ammonia to ammonium - less toxin ion. This will give you a little room in the water changes, but not enough to stop them. It will let you wait a little longer before doing a water change, say, if its a busy day and you just didn't get to it.

What are you feeding him? It might help to check his diet to see if that will help him get better. It could have no effect whatsoever, but we might as well look at it and see.

 

[lauritastlouis]

Was it a chain fish store that told you ammonia at 1 ppm needed a water change? That is completely wrong. Ammonia should be below .25 ppm, ideally 0. That might be why your other levels are still at zero.

By active, is he swimming around, frolicking like a happy little guy without a care in the world? Or is he running into the substrate, rubbing against the substrate, walls, or decor? With ammonia that high, I'm suspecting he's running into stuff. They do this when the ammonia is irritating their gills. Once the ammonia is down, he will act like a happy little guy.

As for friends, I've had two blue veil tail bettas. One of them was a hateful, murderous boy (he would try to attack my ex-boyfriend through the glass) and my other was afraid of a nerite snail. All are different, much like people. Some are social butterflies and like tons of friends, even guppies, I've read some people see, which is beyond docile. Some, like Dmitri was, will try to attack a human.

The fin rot could be anything. When I got Dmitri, who was from Walmart, he came with awful fin rot. It looked like someone had taken tweezers to his tail. There were chunks of his tail in the water with him. What helped him was a lot of clean water. I did bi-weekly water changes and fed him once a day in the morning.

I would suggest starting out with getting the ammonia down. The best thing to do is get your own test kit. Almost everyone here suggests the API master test kit. Liquid ones are MUCH more accurate and reliable. Test strips, in my experience, will say your ammonia hasn't gone down when it has. Fish stores have a tendency to say your levels are fine when they aren't. Mine doesn't only because I walk in and am reading this forum as I look for what I need. They know I know what I'm talking about and when I don't, I've been asking here all day before coming in. Start by getting the ammonia down with multiple 50% water changes. After that, we can see if anything else needs to be done.

No, the gentleman that actually helped me for once was not from a chain store. He was the owner of a mom n pop store that specializes in fw tropicals and in koi ponds.

Before that, The ammonia occasionally spiked to .5, but then would sit at 0 for a week before spiking again. (At this time, the nitrites would spike at like 3.0, and then would fall back to 0. The nitrates would remain barely detectable, and then all heck would break lose, and ammonia would spike to .25 or .5 again). This went on for 2 months. The tank literally did not EVER cycle.

I did daily 25% water changes while I was doing flagyl (10 days), and then did a 50% change 2-3x a week thereafter trying to get rid of the bacterial bloom and fin rot. There were a few emergency 100% water changes in there. One after my son dumped in a whole bunch of aquarium salt. The other in a vain attempt to get rid of the bacterial bloom. Both times, I (of course) placed the filter media in a ziplock bag of aquarium water that I had collected from the filter outflow while I did the change.

After the first few weeks with this tank, instead of using crappy test strips, I went out and spent the money for an API master test kit.

As for swimming, your guess is incorrect. Neither my husband or myself has ever witnessed him rubbing against anything in the aquarium or bumping into anything. He is "swimming happily" as you put it. His favorite thing to do, in fact is swim up to the filter outflow, let it shoot him backwards across the aquarium, and then do about 3 laps. I notice that he does this more when you walk up to the tank. He typically does this, and then after his laps comes to the surface in front of you. Then he does this all over again. I can only surmise that this is the betta version of bungie jumping. He must be an adrenaline junkie lol.

His appetite is always amazing. He only gets fed once a day, but will "beg" for food all day long. In fact, when I brought him in to be looked at by the guy at the fish store, it was a chilly day. I put him in a sealable container, and carried that in a small insulated cooler to keep him warm. When this particular betta "begs" for food, he spins around in a circle with his nose out of the water. (Think syncronized swimming). He was doing this in the container after having been swiped from his nice 78-80 degree tank and driven for 15 minutes. The store owner noted that bettas usually display stress behavior when they are put in similar circumstances. They usually don't beg for food when stressed. He suggested that this was because he was a fairly healthy fish despite the fin rot.

As far as why he told me to lay off for a while was that infectious fin rot typically has other symptoms (inflammation, the fins usually don't come off in large chunks, but are "eaten" away by the pathogen, lack of appetite, sluggish behavior, etc etc etc), and stress related does not. Since constantly changing the water and messing with the poor betta daily was not working at all, he suggested that a combination of the bacterial bloom and the constant pestering and constant large water changes were indeed the problem. The fish was stressed out, not sick from a pathogen. He said that he has seen bettas get extreme and severe fin rot from simply being netted for a moment (which he also warned me never to do. Said that I should only collect him in a cup, which is what I had always done anyways).

He told me to stop using ammolock because it can cause issues with the tank cycling, and that it was unusual to have a tank not cycle after over 3 months. The ammonia did not spike to it's current levels until I added the 2 corycats and the snail (which the betta has had no problems with fyi). I understand that all bettas are as different as all people are, however he said that his experience with bettas that he had owned was that they tended to have more stress related illness even with perfect water conditions when they were in tanks larger than 5 gallons and were alone. He said that when he personally owned bettas, he usually put a few corys in tanks that large with the fish, and they tended to thrive more. And indeed, he has gotten better and has a lot of new fin growth, even with higher ammonia levels (due to the tank going through another attempt to cycle. This time with a better filter) with the addition of the corys and the bacterial bloom was gone within a few days.

My curiosity question was if I added moonlights, could that stress the fish, because other than a weekly water change, this particular betta seems to get fin rot when he experiences changes to his tank.

 

[BettaGal]

If you think it will stress him, don't do it. Watch him closely when he does laps. I've never had a fish swim laps ever. He might be making quick brushes against the glass as he goes. That ammonia spike has got to come down. It is stressful to them for ammonia levels to be above .25 ppm and becomes toxic at 1. It will cause the rubbing, if it hasn't already, and it will cause the issues such as in this case: fin rot.

 

[Candiceg]

Your ammonia went up because you added more fish. They produce more ammonia. Stop using ammo lock. That is why your tank never cycled. You just need lots of water changes, prime and test your water daily. Eventually you will have amm 0 nitrite 0 and some nitrates. Then you know cycle complete

 

[Hholly]

Your ammonia went up because you added more fish. They produce more ammonia. Stop using ammo lock. That is why your tank never cycled. You just need lots of water changes, prime and test your water daily. Eventually you will have amm 0 nitrite 0 and some nitrates. Then you know cycle complete

+1
Also, when you do your nitrate test, bang the bottle #2 on a table, and shake it like h*ll, to get an accurate reading.

 

[lauritastlouis]

@bettagirl: no, he is not brushing up against anything when he is making laps. He swims far enough away from the glass and decor to be brushing up. He's been doing this from day one. He also will come up for a "snuggle" if you stick your finger in the water, and from day one, he won't even flare at, let alone attack a mirror. He's chill for a betta and maybe doesn't follow the exact pattern, but as you said yourself, all bettas are different. Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean he doesn't do it.

I understand that the spike needs to come down, but if he heals with fewer water changes, and the corys n snail don't show signs of stress, who am I to judge the will of the "fish gods"?

@Candice - funny you should say that. The LFS that gave me the first advice in 3 months that has actually worked said the same thing lol. Said that Ammolock causes more harm than good. Interestingly enough: the day before my original post I was in the middle of a water change when my 3 year old dumped out my conditioner in the sink. All I had was the ammolock, and the stores had already closed for the night. I used the ammolock. Next morning - chunk o' tail missing. Went out, and got another bottle of Jungle Start Right. Added 2 capfuls. Now: tail is already healing, ammonia at 1.0ppm and all. I wonder if it's possible that "Mr. Fish-fish" (Yep thats his name) is allergic to ammolock??????

Since the other fish and snail are still active, healthy, and no, not rubbing against anything I have decided to continue my current course, praying that the cycle hurries the heck up! I used the smallest ammount of ammolock possible (1.25ml) but did have the precense of mind to test for chlorine with some ST. Louis County of Health test strips (bar/restaurant issue, dontcha know), so it didn't remove it form the entire tank I don't think, but still he had such a nasty reaction. If the reaction to the ammonia remover is worse than the ammonia, it does make me wonder.

Interstingly enough, my mom and I were discussing this, and she told me that back in the 70's when she had several tanks, no one tested for ammonia. PH was the big deal back then. She said she never messed with ammonia, and the soonest she ever lost a fish after purchase was 6 months.

Considering that I have been told by more people than not that I should never change more than 25% unless there is a known chemical contaminate, I am starting to think that all of the frequent changes were indeed what exacerbated this fin rot to begin with. I understand that fin rot can be caused by poor water quality, but if leaving higher ammonia with less changes allows healing, again maybe I should just let it be.

Back to my original question however: Is it possible that using blue led's at night could stress him further? Around the time he started healing, I also changed my lighting procedure. He used to have lights off during the day, and lights on at night. Right around the time he started healing, we moved the tank out of my kids' room, and started turning it off at night. Could the messed up circadian rythem have added to his stress? If so, would the moonlights affect this?

(PS, sorry for my crazy spelling errors. Just got home from work and am a bit on the sleepy side)

 

[Candiceg]

If you feel more comfortable with smaller water changes then do many smaller ones. Personally I like large water changes because it gets me the results I want and my fish are healthier. Ammo lock isn't a water conditioner so it won't take out chlorine or heavy metals. Most people on here use Prime (red bottle) and its very cost effective. Ammo lock I believe is for detoxifying ammonia in an emergency. I think this is why your not seeing symptoms of ammonia poisoning in your fish. If you want to get your tank cycled stop using it and start doing a lot of water changes. You need to get that ammonia down to .25 or lower. I have day lights and moonlights in my tanks but I turn all lights off at night to give them a break and sleep and so my nocturnal fish can eat dinner.

 

[lauritastlouis]

If you feel more comfortable with smaller water changes then do many smaller ones. Personally I like large water changes because it gets me the results I want and my fish are healthier. Ammo lock isn't a water conditioner so it won't take out chlorine or heavy metals. Most people on here use Prime (red bottle) and its very cost effective. Ammo lock I believe is for detoxifying ammonia in an emergency. I think this is why your not seeing symptoms of ammonia poisoning in your fish. If you want to get your tank cycled stop using it and start doing a lot of water changes. You need to get that ammonia down to .25 or lower. I have day lights and moonlights in my tanks but I turn all lights off at night to give them a break and sleep and so my nocturnal fish can eat dinner.

Actually per the manufacturers website it also removes chlorine and chloramine...

Will the moonlights all night harm them though? The big tank is now in my kids room (29 gallon and just has a few mollies and barbs) and we've already put the moonlighs in there and use it as a nigh light.

 

[Candiceg]

But it stops the nitrate cycle which is why your tank won't cycle. No the moon lights wont hurt them but I just feel its nice to give them a break so they can sleep

 

[ktomminello]

barbs are sometimes fin nippers, which can cause all sorts of problems, especially with your ammonia that high.... Is there anything rotting in your tank?