Dropsy in Angelfish

[LiQuiD]

So not sure that is what this is, but it has come on slowly over the past month. Almost everything I have read points to dropsy. She laid eggs a while back so I thought that she was getting fat with them again, and going to lay them. Eggs never came. I read it could also be constipation from the new diet. I added a few discus to my tank and started feeding a mixture of blood worms and brine shrimp 3x a week since thats all the discus will eat. The tank seems happy with that decision lol.

Anyway, I have ordered Maracyn 2 and have done an Epsom salt bath a day for about 15-30 minutes each time. Here is the site I am using for help. HERE

Once the medicine gets here I will move her out of my 75g and to my 38g. Ill treat the entire tank and have her there until I see signs of improvement.

Any thoughts, ideas are all appreciated.

[URL=http://s22.photobucket.com/user/liquidsmoke420/media/222_zpsciafe5db.jpg.html]

 

[coralbandit]

Did you QT.the discus and deworm them?
Many in the discus world just do this like they change water,because that is what you do when you get discus...The price/burden for not is high!
The angel does not look ill or seem to show 'dropsy' as I have seen it before.
Treating for bacterial infection is a pretty good idea if you strongly believe it is 'dropsy', as by the time the scales protrude internal damage is usually done,and the fish is doomed.
But I would treat the whole tank unfortunately simply due to the nature of bacterial infections...
This is also why the discus keepers do what they do...
With plants,hardscape and wood in tank treatment is less effective if even effective enough to help?There is no real way to measure the strength once in tank and effected by all other factors...
Have you tried fasting the angel to see if it would help?
Brine shrimp have fiber that should help the angel with constipation not impede it...

 

[Andy Sager]

While Maracyn 2 is designed to work on internal diseases, kanamycin ( found in Kanaplex if not available alone) is a better choice for dropsy.
A few questions before jumping to a dropsy conclusion tho:
Did the fish spawn the first time before you added the Discus or after?
Is the fish still eating?
Are you seeing any signs of her defecating? If she is still defecating, there's a good chance she is just not in a spawning environment anymore and is just holding her eggs. Angels can get large when holding eggs and not spawning so you can't always jump to "There's a problem cause she didn't spawn".
Is she part of a breeding pair or just a single fish that laid eggs?


( Welcome to diagnosing fish problems. )

 

[LiQuiD]

Did you QT.the discus and deworm them?
Many in the discus world just do this like they change water,because that is what you do when you get discus...The price/burden for not is high!
The angel does not look ill or seem to show 'dropsy' as I have seen it before.
Treating for bacterial infection is a pretty good idea if you strongly believe it is 'dropsy', as by the time the scales protrude internal damage is usually done,and the fish is doomed.
But I would treat the whole tank unfortunately simply due to the nature of bacterial infections...
This is also why the discus keepers do what they do...
With plants,hardscape and wood in tank treatment is less effective if even effective enough to help?There is no real way to measure the strength once in tank and effected by all other factors...
Have you tried fasting the angel to see if it would help?
Brine shrimp have fiber that should help the angel with constipation not impede it...

Thanks for the reply!

No I did not de-worm my discuss, and hate to say I havent heard about that before. I will look into it, and see what would be a good treatment. Do all discus have worms? Do they show signs of having worms ever? Both of mine appear healthy and have great appetites.

As for fasting, I did not feed the entire tank for a week, but that did not seem to change things.

 

[LiQuiD]

While Maracyn 2 is designed to work on internal diseases, kanamycin ( found in Kanaplex if not available alone) is a better choice for dropsy.
A few questions before jumping to a dropsy conclusion tho:
Did the fish spawn the first time before you added the Discus or after?
Is the fish still eating?
Are you seeing any signs of her defecating? If she is still defecating, there's a good chance she is just not in a spawning environment anymore and is just holding her eggs. Angels can get large when holding eggs and not spawning so you can't always jump to "There's a problem cause she didn't spawn".
Is she part of a breeding pair or just a single fish that laid eggs?


( Welcome to diagnosing fish problems. )

Yeah no kidding lol! Thanks for the reply as well.

I will loook into kanamycin and get some in hand. As for the spawning, it happened very soon after introducing my first discuss to the tank. It honestly looked like they "paired up", lol. They never left each other sides. The discuss ended up eating most of the eggs in the end.

Have not seen her poop in a while to be honest. Fish that I have given epson salt baths too before, I almost immediately see it. Not with her.

The discuss I had with her ended up dying after a few months, and still left me scratching my head. Water parameters were good, but I did notice it not want to eat much from the beginning. So she is single and ready to mingle, lol.

 

[Andy Sager]

Yeah no kidding lol! Thanks for the reply as well.

I will loook into kanamycin and get some in hand. As for the spawning, it happened very soon after introducing my first discuss to the tank. It honestly looked like they "paired up", lol. They never left each other sides. The discuss ended up eating most of the eggs in the end.

Have not seen her poop in a while to be honest. Fish that I have given epson salt baths too before, I almost immediately see it. Not with her.

The discuss I had with her ended up dying after a few months, and still left me scratching my head. Water parameters were good, but I did notice it not want to eat much from the beginning. So she is single and ready to mingle, lol.

In all my years of keeping Angels, I know of no time when a Discus and Angel spawned together so I doubt that was a "pairing" and spawn. Other fish eating her eggs is not a surprise so nothing there.
Because she is single may be the real reason for the lack of spawning again. Just because a fish is carrying eggs does not mean they will automatically spawn. That will mean that a female will become engorged with eggs that she does nothing about.

Here's the bottom line to me: I would isolate the female into a bare bottom tank and see if she is eating and defecating. IMO, if there is "Poo", there's nothing you need to do. If there is no "Poo" then I would aggressively treat her for an internal issue. You should know within 24 hours from feeding to defecating.

 

[LiQuiD]

In all my years of keeping Angels, I know of no time when a Discus and Angel spawned together so I doubt that was a "pairing" and spawn. Other fish eating her eggs is not a surprise so nothing there.
Because she is single may be the real reason for the lack of spawning again. Just because a fish is carrying eggs does not mean they will automatically spawn. That will mean that a female will become engorged with eggs that she does nothing about.

Here's the bottom line to me: I would isolate the female into a bare bottom tank and see if she is eating and defecating. IMO, if there is "Poo", there's nothing you need to do. If there is no "Poo" then I would aggressively treat her for an internal issue. You should know within 24 hours from feeding to defecating.

Sorry for the late reply, I have been super busy with both of my jobs, and haven't had time to put into this yet. I came home from work tonight with the plan to move her and treat her, and to my surprise, she is mostly back to normal. She was still plump when I left this morning, and now I would say its 80% gone! I have only done 3-4 salt baths and nothing else. She was still eating, but not much though. Since this discovery, I do not feel I should treat the tank. Maybe it was constipation after all, and she finally pushed it all out or maybe she spawned eggs and they all were eaten? What do you think?

As for the previous pairing comment, I dont think by any means that it was going to happen nor would I believe it could happen. There was just no denying how they never left each others sides, and the eggs happened about a month after introducing the discuss to the tank. I have had the angel for 2 years, and never saw anything like this behavior from her. The only other fish in the tank her size were 2 Boesemani's. Perhaps she was happy to hang out with a new fish more her speed. My wife and I thought it was really funny that the eggs came after them being inseparable, so we joked that they where having a naughty affair.

 

[Andy Sager]

It very well could have been the baths that softened her up enough to let the s**t hit the fan... so to speak :LOL: or another spawning. There's no real way to tell externally when the fish is in a community tank.
I understood what you meant with the timing of the spawn and the addition of the Discus and was just trying to point out that after a whole lot of years keeping these fish and it not happening to my knowledge before, that THAT was a highly unlikely scenario for you to consider. Again tho, just because a fish has eggs does not mean she will spawn them. I currently have tanks full of adult female Angels that have never spawned solely because the conditions for spawning just are not present ( on purpose. )

For now, I would stay away from prepared dry foods and stick with frozen or live and let the fish's system get back to normal before reintroducing flakes and freeze dried foods.

 

[LiQuiD]

It very well could have been the baths that softened her up enough to let the s**t hit the fan... so to speak :LOL: or another spawning. There's no real way to tell externally when the fish is in a community tank.
I understood what you meant with the timing of the spawn and the addition of the Discus and was just trying to point out that after a whole lot of years keeping these fish and it not happening to my knowledge before, that THAT was a highly unlikely scenario for you to consider. Again tho, just because a fish has eggs does not mean she will spawn them. I currently have tanks full of adult female Angels that have never spawned solely because the conditions for spawning just are not present ( on purpose. )

For now, I would stay away from prepared dry foods and stick with frozen or live and let the fish's system get back to normal before reintroducing flakes and freeze dried foods.

Thanks alot for the great advice Andy, I really appreciate it. I did put a little flake in there before I read this, just to see if she would eat, and she jumped on it, which was a good sign for me. I will stick with the frozen foods, I was just concerned that that is what got me in this situation in the first place. Should I starve them out another week for good measure? They had their shrimp/worm feeding yesterday.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks alot for the great advice Andy, I really appreciate it. I did put a little flake in there before I read this, just to see if she would eat, and she jumped on it, which was a good sign for me. I will stick with the frozen foods, I was just concerned that that is what got me in this situation in the first place. Should I starve them out another week for good measure? They had their shrimp/worm feeding yesterday.

If the fish is back eating, then I wouldn't starve them again but I would give them easily digestible foods for a few days to get her system back in order. Think of it as yourself, if you just had a good case of constipation, you wouldn't eat hard to digest foods as your first meal right after you were relieved would you? Some dried foods ( ie flakes or freeze dried) have been known to cause constipation so that's why the recommendation.

 

[LiQuiD]

If the fish is back eating, then I wouldn't starve them again but I would give them easily digestible foods for a few days to get her system back in order. Think of it as yourself, if you just had a good case of constipation, you wouldn't eat hard to digest foods as your first meal right after you were relieved would you? Some dried foods ( ie flakes or freeze dried) have been known to cause constipation so that's why the recommendation.

Will do. This morning she looked like she was plumping up a bit slightly, so I have no clue. As long as she is eating, I will try not to worry about it I guess.

 

[LiQuiD]

If the fish is back eating, then I wouldn't starve them again but I would give them easily digestible foods for a few days to get her system back in order.

So now shes bigger than she was the first time. She stayed slim for maybe 6-8 hours then fattened back up. Im at a loss for ideas. Going to treat her now since Im out of ideas.

 

[Andy Sager]

The fish will swell some when she eats. Is there any corrolation between when you fed her and how quickly she swelled?

 

[Ckay74]

I can only add this to this discussion, i heared many times that feeding the fish with 'fresh' blood Worms is Very dangerous and a gamble because of the way they breed them..., mostly in dirty water with unknown substances in.., (diseases,parasites)because thats the water they thrive in...., and also this reason: for what purposes?, offen they are just for people who go fishing in a lake..., so it doesnt have to be 'sterilized'.., it doesnt matter for most breeders and buyers of blood Worms..
And also, blood Worms have a Very high cholesterol too!! No kiddin...[emoji57]although the fish are mad about them, its Very bad for them, my discus-shop wont sell them anymore because of all the complaints of customers...

 

[Andy Sager]

I can only add this to this discussion, i heared many times that feeding the fish with 'fresh' blood Worms is Very dangerous and a gamble because of the way they breed them..., mostly in dirty water with unknown substances in.., (diseases,parasites)because thats the water they thrive in...., and also this reason: for what purposes?, offen they are just for people who go fishing in a lake..., so it doesnt have to be 'sterilized'.., it doesnt matter for most breeders and buyers of blood Worms..
And also, blood Worms have a Very high cholesterol too!! No kiddin...[emoji57]although the fish are mad about them, its Very bad for them, my discus-shop wont sell them anymore because of all the complaints of customers...

Are you sure they are talking about "Bloodworms" and not Tubifex Worms? Tubifex are a "sewer" worm but most bloodworms for sale are insect larvae.

 

[Lev]

With our angel bonnie you can always see a slight distension after eating but she gets fat like this after eating anything high protein like bloodworms then she does a huuuuge poo and is back to her normal svelte self. I try to only give her bw once per week due to this Lol

 

[LiQuiD]

The fish will swell some when she eats. Is there any correlation between when you fed her and how quickly she swelled?

Not 100% on that as she stayed pretty much the same size for a few weeks. Then after she magically went down, she did bulge right back up after feeding. The only way to know for sure would be to put her in a separate tank and only feed her flakes which she likes. Im working on getting a separate hospital tank but she is eating, and the swelling goes up and down.

I can only add this to this discussion, i heared many times that feeding the fish with 'fresh' blood Worms is Very dangerous and a gamble because of the way they breed them..., mostly in dirty water with unknown substances in.., (diseases,parasites)because thats the water they thrive in...., and also this reason: for what purposes?, offen they are just for people who go fishing in a lake..., so it doesnt have to be 'sterilized'.., it doesnt matter for most breeders and buyers of blood Worms..
And also, blood Worms have a Very high cholesterol too!! No kiddin...[emoji57]although the fish are mad about them, its Very bad for them, my discus-shop wont sell them anymore because of all the complaints of customers...

These are frozen blood worms, and have been used by many people for years as a staple of nutrition for fish. Possibly another type of worm you are referring to.

 

[Ckay74]

i mean these mf's..

 

[LiQuiD]

Are you sure they are talking about "Bloodworms" and not Tubifex Worms? Tubifex are a "sewer" worm but most bloodworms for sale are insect larvae.

So her weight has slowly come and gone, but now this spot under her eye has developed. This is very concerning. She has continued to eat though, so I guess that is somewhat positive.

One thing I have noticed is I see her chase after air bubbles sometimes and eat them. Its not everyday, but have seen it often. Maybe she is filling up with that?

 

[Andy Sager]

If it's coming and going, it may just be a parasite. Many types of parasites live in the digestive tract of fish which may have been the cause of the swelling making it appear to be bloat and now the hatched "bugs" are trying to find a way out of the fish's body. Something to consider because you say the spot comes and goes, is that it's not the same "bug" each tie you see it but just another one using the same escape route. Because of this possibility, you may want to consider putting her in a hospital tank and treating with a antiparasitic med that works on BOTH internal and external parasites. PraziPro or API's General Cure would be my first "go to" meds followed by medicated foods. If I am correct and these are not the same 1 bug each time, you will want to start feeding your whole tank with medicated foods to hopefully prevent the other fish from becoming infested/ infected.