FINALLY got a pic... what is this??

[Passatryde]

So i picked up some rams about 3 weeks ago now and when i got them home i noticed one that looked like it had two injuries - one on each side. I've been asking on here and researched COUNTLESS fish disease pictures, etc. but i haven't been able to figure out what it is. In the past 3 weeks it doesn't seem to be getting any bigger but it might be getting a bit more "fuzzy". when I got a new and improved light the other day i could see it a bit more clearly - it's as if some of the scales are missing then has a bit of fuzzy white around the area where the scales are missing and then it has some SUPER TINY red "veins" in the white fuzzy area. I managed to snap a picture where you could see it the most clearly (50th time is a charm).

Also I noticed about a week ago that another one has a white dot on it's tail-fin (looks just like ich but it hasn't multiplied - just the one single dot). Lastly - also about a week ago i noticed one has a white area on it's dorsal fin - they kinda play rough so i thought maybe it was just an injury but it hasn't gotten any better either.

I've been afraid to just start adding chemicals to the tank so teh only thing i've done so far is add salt - which was a week ago - haven't seen any progress with that. I also bought some Pimafix and Melafix because i figured if the salt didn't work that might be a good intermediate step before trying to add "real" medicine since it's supposed to be all natural. What are your thoughts?

 

[Mumma.of.two]

Have you tried peroxide yet?

 

[Passatryde]

Have you tried peroxide yet?

No I haven't... I was hoping the salt would do the trick so I didn't stress the fish any further. Iirc I'll get a q-tip and wipe the areas with it then put him back in ( need to go back and re read your pm). Do you think the other 2 pics are something I should be worried about and/or related?

Sounds like you think I should try the hydrogen peroxide before anything else right?

 

[Mumma.of.two]

The tiny dot on the tail? Looks like nothing to be worried about. Just keep an eye on it.
Yes. IMO its much better to try it first before you start putting chemicals and antibiotics in the tank that can effect the other fish and the BB.

 

[Passatryde]

The tiny dot on the tail? Looks like nothing to be worried about. Just keep an eye on it.
Yes. IMO its much better to try it first before you start putting chemicals and antibiotics in the tank that can effect the other fish and the BB.

Mumma... I wasn't overly concerned about the one white spec.... More so the white area on the dorsal fin in the 3rd pic. I thought it looked like some sort of fun fungus... What's bb?

 

[Mumma.of.two]

BB = beneficial bacteria
Is it the fin itself or a fuzzy growth? If its just the color of the fin then I'd just watch it. If its fuzzy then try the peroxide if it doesn't clear on its own.

 

[Passatryde]

BB = beneficial bacteria
Is it the fin itself or a fuzzy growth? If its just the color of the fin then I'd just watch it. If its fuzzy then try the peroxide if it doesn't clear on its own.

So I've been trying to catch him for the past 40 minutes....getting really frustrated... But he wont even come within 6 inches of the net. Also got a good look of the other one's dorsal fin...it does look fuzzy. It's not as if it's clear like a healing fin would look. This has been going on for 3 weeks now and u have to admit its testing my patience... Just want it to go away. With every passing day I get more eager just to try the meds (starting with the pimafix and melafix) since I don't really consider them "real meds / chemicals".

 

[Andy Sager]

For what it's worth...

So I've been trying to catch him for the past 40 minutes....getting really frustrated... But he wont even come within 6 inches of the net. Also got a good look of the other one's dorsal fin...it does look fuzzy. It's not as if it's clear like a healing fin would look. This has been going on for 3 weeks now and u have to admit its testing my patience... Just want it to go away. With every passing day I get more eager just to try the meds (starting with the pimafix and melafix) since I don't really consider them "real meds / chemicals".

Catching fish quickly and safely requires 2 nets. 1 Larger and 1 smaller. The larger one will be your catching net and the smaller one your chasing net. You want to position the catch net in such a way that once the fish is in it, there is not escape except backwards. (I use the side of the tank near a corner.) Once postioned, gently guide the fish to the catch net with the chase net.
The whole process shouldn't take more than a minute if done correctly. (Don't be surprised if the chase net becomes the catching net . As long as it gets the job done!)

Hope this helps...

 

[Passatryde]

UPDATE: so the day after i wrote this my wife went into labor and i am now a "dadda.of.one" lol (there's to you mumma). so anyway in my impatience (and quite honestly lack of time to try and follow up with anything else while I was dealing with the new addition to our family) I started putting in the pimafix and melafix and it doesnt look like it's done much of anything (should've just listened to mumma when she said all that it does is make your water smell funny). The last day of the 7 day treatment would be saturday but i'm thinking of just discontinuing it because nothign looks better. In fact there are more of these random white spots around - it's not ich - i know ich - this isn't that. And it also appears that the tail fins are looking more ragged than before. In fact i just looked at that pic with the one with teh white fuzzy spot on it's dorsal fin and looking at the pic vs. looking at hte fish right now - the tail fin looks much more jagged (btw pimafix and melafix is supposed to fix tail rot).

Lastly i noticed a fish or two scratch themselves on a rock which i didn't see before. whatever it is is moving very slowly (at least compared to ich) so i still think it's early enough to nip it in the butt before it really takes off if i play my cards right.

I'll try to look at more disease pics adn see if anything else rings a bell. Another thing that looks different is that one of the white spots (I'm up to about 5-6 white spots spread out over about 3 of my 15 fish) looks like it might have something protruding it like a worm-ish thing. i didn't get a good look so i'll look again in the morning. but if it does appear that it's a worm or something i'll pay close attention to those pics because i remember seeing several displaying that type of thing.

EDIT: oh yeah one more thing - the main one that i was originally concerned about with the fuzziness seems to have had two changes. the tiny red spots seem to be gone (although I haven't got a great look at him yet) but he seems far less willing to defend his territory than he did before. he's the smallest of the rams but before he wouldn't let anyone get near his area - now he doesn't seem to be so aggressive about it.

 

[Passatryde]

any new ideas?

 

[Mumma.of.two]

Congratulations!!!!! Only one thing beats fish IMO and that's babies!
So it's spreading from fish to fish now and you are getting ragged tails. Mmmm look up columnaris and see if that fits the symptoms. Have you lots any fish at all?
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/tropicalfish_disease_identification.html#ERM

 

[Andy Sager]

UPDATE: so the day after i wrote this my wife went into labor and i am now a "dadda.of.one" lol (there's to you mumma). so anyway in my impatience (and quite honestly lack of time to try and follow up with anything else while I was dealing with the new addition to our family) I started putting in the pimafix and melafix and it doesnt look like it's done much of anything (should've just listened to mumma when she said all that it does is make your water smell funny). The last day of the 7 day treatment would be saturday but i'm thinking of just discontinuing it because nothign looks better. In fact there are more of these random white spots around - it's not ich - i know ich - this isn't that. And it also appears that the tail fins are looking more ragged than before. In fact i just looked at that pic with the one with teh white fuzzy spot on it's dorsal fin and looking at the pic vs. looking at hte fish right now - the tail fin looks much more jagged (btw pimafix and melafix is supposed to fix tail rot).

Lastly i noticed a fish or two scratch themselves on a rock which i didn't see before. whatever it is is moving very slowly (at least compared to ich) so i still think it's early enough to nip it in the butt before it really takes off if i play my cards right.

I'll try to look at more disease pics adn see if anything else rings a bell. Another thing that looks different is that one of the white spots (I'm up to about 5-6 white spots spread out over about 3 of my 15 fish) looks like it might have something protruding it like a worm-ish thing. i didn't get a good look so i'll look again in the morning. but if it does appear that it's a worm or something i'll pay close attention to those pics because i remember seeing several displaying that type of thing.

EDIT: oh yeah one more thing - the main one that i was originally concerned about with the fuzziness seems to have had two changes. the tiny red spots seem to be gone (although I haven't got a great look at him yet) but he seems far less willing to defend his territory than he did before. he's the smallest of the rams but before he wouldn't let anyone get near his area - now he doesn't seem to be so aggressive about it.

First off, Congrats on becoming a Dadda FYI, teach kids early how to change water in your tanks and you'll never see a siphon hose again until they leave for college

For the more serious stuff: Scratching / flashing is usually a sign of parasites (both internal and external) The problem in identifying which one for you is that parasites are not usually fuzzy but they will leave tiny wounds (red dots) from where they were attached to the fish.
My first thought was oodinium if the spots are white but not as large as Ick however, with oodinium, time is not your ally and it needs to be treated quickly or the fish become heavly infested with bacterial infection and die. So the symptoms fit but the timeline doesn't. (BTW: OOdinium looks like a dusting opposed to Ich which looks like salt crystals.)
Another possibility is that what you are calling "fuzzy" might in fact be a velvety appearance which could be Velvet disease which is a parasite in the oodinium family but does not act as quickly as Oodinium. This parasite needs to be treated with darkness and copper for quickest results.
If the fish are looking more ragged, you may want to consider using Furan-2 which is a nitrofurizone based product and attacks both gram + and gram- bacterias. Short of doing gram stains and identifying exactly which kind of bacteria it is, this is the best general cure. I would also use some form of a paracide prior to the Furan because if you don't stop the cause, the remedy won't work very well.
Obviously, whatever you have been doing hasn't been working as the fish are showing signs of decline ( another clue for velvet diagnosis.) I would strongly recommend starting an antiparasite med followed up with the anti-biotic.

(Now I'm sure I'm gonna get flack for this comment but... Holistic type meds in general work very poorly on most fish diseases. They are good for prevention but once a fish is actually sick, you 've got to go with the big guns. I've had more people kill more fish with doing holistic dips and swabs as they usually damage the fish they are trying to save. Properly medicating and eradication of the disease can be done without ever touching the fish which IS the best way of doing it.
Now, I need to state that "This is in my opinion" but it's based on years (a whole lot of them ) of hands on experience. )

Hope this helps...

 

[Mumma.of.two]

While I agree with you, at the same time I do not. Lol. If a disease is in its full blown stages, progressing quickly or the fish seems to be suffering by all means go straight to the medication. You have to knock it on the head quickly to avoid further stress of the fish.
If its something simple to cure like ich or a mild bacterial infection I don't deem it necessary to expose the fish to unnecessary medications when something simple like salt, clean water or a swab can be just as effective without negative implications like a crashed cycle or heathy fish being exposed.
I may use, as you say, 'holistic' medicine to treat my fish but so do many other aquarists. It's cheap, effective and widely available in countries with stricter laws concerning medication.

 

[Andy Sager]

However...

While I agree with you, at the same time I do not. Lol. If a disease is in its full blown stages, progressing quickly or the fish seems to be suffering by all means go straight to the medication. You have to knock it on the head quickly to avoid further stress of the fish.
If its something simple to cure like ich or a mild bacterial infection I don't deem it necessary to expose the fish to unnecessary medications when something simple like salt, clean water or a swab can be just as effective without negative implications like a crashed cycle or heathy fish being exposed.
I may use, as you say, 'holistic' medicine to treat my fish but so do many other aquarists. It's cheap, effective and widely available in countries with stricter laws concerning medication.

However, as the expression goes " a little bit of knowledge in the wrong hands, is a very dangerous thing."
I think that we can agree that handling a sick fish is a stressful thing for the fish. Couple that with the potential exposure to too much time out of water and the removal of the already damaged slime coat and you have the potential for disaster. PLUS, in all the postings I've read on this site about swabbing, I've never seen anyone finish the post by saying that the utmost care must be taken to not get any swabbing meds into the gills. Even Hydrogen Peroxide applied directly to the gills damages them. You and I might know that's common sense but a newbie probable doesn't. More needs to be explained in these type postings (IMO ) Treatment in a hospital tank resolves your cycling and fish exposure problems.
As for Ick, I was always of the mind that Ick is a symptom of a problem and not a problem unto itself. I've cured ick with just a water change and heat so if you want to call that "holistic" I'll give you that one The object is to create a scenario where the fish live in the "ideal" situations so that they don't come down with Ick in the first place.
We won't get into salt as there is a great debate going on with it. I use it, I use it at a different level than I see people here suggesting but it has more to do with the water chemistry than the medicinal purposes for which it is used

I come from a time when the "good" meds were available and quite effective. I look now at the stores and see the ingredients in some of the products and know that they are not the most effective ways of treating certain diseases. I've used a few of them on my Bettas as an experiment and must say, "I'm not impressed (or the owner of those fish anymore )" I used to do my own sensativity cultures and you'd be amazed at what I found. More meds that were supposed to work didn't and those that shouldn't did. The proof was in the petrie dish.

So, as I predicted, I knew there'd be some fallout from my comment but I stand behind it (or next to it, or near by it LOL) But that's the funny thing about fish keeping, what works in some places doesn't work in others. What people forget is that the WATER itself is not the same all over. That's why there is no one way only.

 

[Mumma.of.two]

No fallout from your comments. I mostly agreed with you. Im not looking for a debate I have been sharing my knowledge and experiences with the OP (be it not as much as you have) and have been exchanging PMs explaining the full set of directions and precautions with peroxide swabbing.

 

[Andy Sager]

Thank you

No fallout from your comments. I mostly agreed with you. Im not looking for a debate I have been sharing my knowledge and experiences with the OP (be it not as much as you have) and have been exchanging PMs explaining the full set of directions and precautions with peroxide swabbing.

It's great that you are doing this however, what about all the people who read a comment "Swab the area with..." and just do it without the full explanation of the how to do it? That's really my point . But, I guess if one less person does it incorrectly, that's one more person who can explain how to do it correctly
Hopefully, between the 2 of us and the others here, we can help solve this poster's problem

Keep on swimming

 

[Passatryde]

So after looking at those photos again I'm leaning toward cotton fin fungus. On the badmans site there's actually a pic of a golden ram that has the white jagged areas on the edge of the fins that they are now showing and the top arrow looks very similar to the third pic I originally posted. Just to be clear the only fish in the tank showing anything are the rams. One ram has the white areas on its back as shown in the first 2pics. One has the white spot on its dorsal fin as shown in pic 3 (the one that looks very similar to the pic on the badmans site) it is also showing the white fin ragged edges too. Then there's one with just a couple white spots (bigger than velvet but not as round as ich). Then there's one ram that's fine and all the other fish seem fine.

So that's why I'm leaning toward the fungus. What do you think?

 

[Andy Sager]

So after looking at those photos again I'm leaning toward cotton fin fungus. On the badmans site there's actually a pic of a golden ram that has the white jagged areas on the edge of the fins that they are now showing and the top arrow looks very similar to the third pic I originally posted. Just to be clear the only fish in the tank showing anything are the rams. One ram has the white areas on its back as shown in the first 2pics. One has the white spot on its dorsal fin as shown in pic 3 (the one that looks very similar to the pic on the badmans site) it is also showing the white fin ragged edges too. Then there's one with just a couple white spots (bigger than velvet but not as round as ich). Then there's one ram that's fine and all the other fish seem fine.

So that's why I'm leaning toward the fungus. What do you think?

I'd agree until you mentioned the scratching. Fish usually don't scratch or flash from fungus. As long as the other fish in the tank are not acting effected, you might want to try and just medicate the "sick" rams in a seperate tank and see if that gets rid of the problems. You'll also be able to see if this really is isolated to just the Rams. If they aren't in the tank and other fish start to break down it's not fungus or just fungus. (Diseases take out the weak first.) I'd still suggest the furizone for this as it will take out any bacterial infections as well. If they are in fact fungus balls, it means that there were open wounds that have been infected. The sooner you allow those areas to heal, fungus free, the faster you can get them back into their regular tank.

Keep us posted

 

[Passatryde]

I'd agree until you mentioned the scratching. Fish usually don't scratch or flash from fungus. As long as the other fish in the tank are not acting effected, you might want to try and just medicate the "sick" rams in a seperate tank and see if that gets rid of the problems. You'll also be able to see if this really is isolated to just the Rams. If they aren't in the tank and other fish start to break down it's not fungus or just fungus. (Diseases take out the weak first.) I'd still suggest the furizone for this as it will take out any bacterial infections as well. If they are in fact fungus balls, it means that there were open wounds that have been infected. The sooner you allow those areas to heal, fungus free, the faster you can get them back into their regular tank.

Keep us posted

Yeah I agree that would be the best approach but I dont have another tank to put them in.

The scratching I've only seen happen twice (and I've spent hours looking at them) over the past week so I d t know if they just do that on occasion. I did a big water change today and all the fish seem much happier without the meds melafix. I got another really close up look at one of the spots and I'm darn sure it looked a little fuzzy so I feel more and more confident that it's fungus related. Do you recommend anything that works good but won't damage my other fish and plants?

 

[Andy Sager]

Here's my suggestion....

Yeah I agree that would be the best approach but I dont have another tank to put them in.

The scratching I've only seen happen twice (and I've spent hours looking at them) over the past week so I d t know if they just do that on occasion. I did a big water change today and all the fish seem much happier without the meds melafix. I got another really close up look at one of the spots and I'm darn sure it looked a little fuzzy so I feel more and more confident that it's fungus related. Do you recommend anything that works good but won't damage my other fish and plants?

Okay then, scratching is not an intregal part of the diagnosis anymore ( Do you see now why it's hard to diagnose over the internet?? )

Due to the fact that a lot of the medications I USED to use are no longer available (I MISS YOU AQUATRONICS!!!) I did a little bit of research for what's available today and found this article: Columnaris (Flexibacteria); Aquarium, Pond Treatment, Prevention; Fungus, Saprolegnia
I suggest you read section 2 about Fungus infections. (Very informative about the misinformation found on the internet.)
From there, you'll need to check with the manufacturers of whichever product you choose to use to make sure they are safe for the plants. (I rarely medicated in a main tank so I would be just guessing if they were safe.)
As a possible other solution, you can try feeding a medicated food on top of the maintainence and /or medications suggested if you find one that's good for fungal infection treatment.

Hope this helps...