Fish tb? Old age?

[hartgirl]

So I have had this gold Barb for a few years now (lifespan online ranges from 3-7 depending on what you read!!) Nothing new has been added to the tank, but I did move them out of one tank because I thought they were killing my angels, and then a couple months later back to the original tank when I figured out it wasn't them...anyways. Either way, both tanks had the same inhabitants as always, I just tried splitting them up to find the nippers...well now this one fish is wasting away- and the sunken appearance has come on really fast. It's in QT now. Could this be tb? If could be so many things...but if it's tb tons of people recommend euthanizing the WHOLE main tank - which isn't happening....so I'm kind of freaking out. Looking for others with similar symptoms but none so far. The only thing is, maybe 2 years ago, I did have Bala Sharks that had the same thing happen- just failed to thrive and got all sunken in....After they died, nothing else got it...but this fish looks awfully close years later!

*forgot to mention water parameters are 0/0/20 for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. Ph 7.4 and very stable. 125 gallon community tank with barbs, rainbow fish, gourami, an eel, cory cats, various tetras, etc....


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[coralbandit]

There are several issues that cause sunken stomach.
Since you have added nothing I would think internal worms would not be possible.
I have seen the same in old swordtails in same situation.
For me it turned out to be columnaris(the internal type).


http://www.myaquariumclub.com/columnaris-and-what-i-have-learned...-1689.html

 

[Delapool]

Don't see come back from that pic unfortunately.

 

[hartgirl]

Yeah I doubt he's coming back from this. He is definitely older- this group of fish have been with me through all the upgrades- from 55 gallons to 90 gallons to now 125 gallons. I'm quite familiar with Columnaris when it presents externally....could be that and it just attacked him because he's older and weaker? I'm still medicating the qt but I'm not holding my breath....


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[coralbandit]

I would euthanize and steri the tank(QT).
Know about PP?
Here's a quote from my favorite(sounds as sick as it is)columnaris link


• Finally, since Columnaris is an opportunistic aerobic infection even a well maintained aquarium can suffer from a Columnaris infection with even a slight opportunity for infection (assuming this bacterial pathogen is present). A common portal for a Columnaris infection is simply an older and weaker fish. Old age allows many opportunistic infections to get a foothold in at least the fish in question.
This is important to note, since treating a fish that has his/her immunity and normal body functions in decline may often be futile. This does not mean it is not worth while attempting a cure, only that an aquarium keeper should not beat him or herself up over failure to cure a favorite fish that has been well cared for since bringing the fish home. I have seen this with Bettas in particular over the years since these popular and personable fish often win us over in our hearts, but have a short lifespan even with the best of care (this lifespan can vary depending upon whether kept in an aquarium or bowl).


This was pulled from this link where you may find info on PP.
Fish Columnaris | Fungus & Saprolegnia | Treatment & Prevention
Sorry about your fish.

 

[hartgirl]

That's ok. Thanks for the link and the positive thoughts. I have also read that, but I'm glad that others seem to think it could be Columnaris rather than tb. I suppose it's the lesser of two evils, as I've at least had luck treating columnaris in the past....

Regarding sterilizing the tank- is there anything I can do to keep the plants? H2o2 or bleach dip? I always keep my QT planted because the fish feel more at home and not in a sterile empty box....I researched it once a long time ago and found it to be very true. It's nothing fancy really...

Or....will leaving it baron with no fish kill off the disease with no host to live on? I could salt the tank and medicate a few more days if it would help....


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[coralbandit]

With no fish, the tank could be clean in 30 days?
Some feel columnaris to an annual event?
The salt would be a big help if the plants can tolerate it.
The palnts being dipped in bleach could work also.
My reading on steri is to use pool shock(the strongest chlorine available),but this may not be good enough for TB.
For columanris if the tank is fallow and salted I would think you could be safe.
Kanamycin and furan are the recommended antibiotics for columnaris.

 

[Delapool]

Generally I find these don't spread. One fish gets it and wastes away (if that cheers you up).

The tank would need to sit empty for a month to get rid of columnaris (in theory).

 

[hartgirl]

The plants will tolerate salt, and the med I'm using is Maracyn plus. It's a gram negative and gram positive antibiotic that I swear by. Managed to treat and heal a tank with finicky neon tetras that had classic saddleback columnaris once and keep this stuff on hand in case!

It does kind of make me feel better that once the fish wastes away, it's done with. Not for the fish I've had for 3 years at all...but at least for the others in the 125 gallon. I would cry if I had to treat that tank with meds again. So expensive ?


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[Delapool]

I know what you mean. Now I have all the QT gear they just go in there when sick.

But the tank is so planted now with giant hygro that it's hard to catch anything. Recently was just shovelling in triple sulpha tablets as the cheapest option until I could catch one. Was lucky I found some at a third of the price - I think as they had just expired.

A half dose of Pimafix in the DT I've also found useful for fish that just look off. It's also not too expensive here.

 

[coralbandit]

The plants will tolerate salt, and the med I'm using is Maracyn plus. It's a gram negative and gram positive antibiotic that I swear by. Managed to treat and heal a tank with finicky neon tetras that had classic saddleback columnaris once and keep this stuff on hand in case!

It does kind of make me feel better that once the fish wastes away, it's done with. Not for the fish I've had for 3 years at all...but at least for the others in the 125 gallon. I would cry if I had to treat that tank with meds again. So expensive ��


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unfortunately maracyn 1 &2 have been not as effective as many feel.
The PP is the way to go for so many disease issues IMO!
Potassium Permaganate!
I'll link it because I have to but it is how I cured columnaris and still use as an disolved organic remover.
it is not the easiest product to use but IMO well worth learning about and for 1/2 the cost of treating your 125once, you will have a 5x life time supply!
Ask me and my 180 g How I know?
Link coming and I have about 3.5lbs of pp for those who don't want lifetime supply.!
This explains use and every yellow word is a link!!
It is a lot of reading.......
Potassium permanganate | The Skeptical Aquarist

This link will explain mixing best.
BIDKA The British And International Discus Keepers Association - library, Potassium Permanganate
I haven't heard from anyone else using this lately.
I wonder why more don't go back to what worked?
Discus keepers kids!
You think your fish are special?
I use this regulary with my rams!!!!

 

[Delapool]

unfortunately maracyn 1 &2 have been not as effective as many feel.
The PP is the way to go for so many disease issues IMO!
Potassium Permaganate!
I'll link it because I have to but it is how I cured columnaris and still use as an disolved organic remover.
it is not the easiest product to use but IMO well worth learning about and for 1/2 the cost of treating your 125once, you will have a 5x life time supply!
Ask me and my 180 g How I know?
Link coming and I have about 3.5lbs of pp for those who don't want lifetime supply.!
This explains use and every yellow word is a link!!
It is a lot of reading.......
Potassium permanganate | The Skeptical Aquarist

This link will explain mixing best.
BIDKA The British And International Discus Keepers Association - library, Potassium Permanganate
I haven't heard from anyone else using this lately.
I wonder why more don't go back to what worked?
Discus keepers kids!
You think your fish are special?
I use this regulary with my rams!!!!

It does seem rarely used that I've noticed. Not sure why? Maybe it's used and just not discussed??

I have never seen it at a lfs here but finally remembered that it used(?) to be called condys crystals. So was going to check out a chemist today.

 

[hartgirl]

I'll definitely look into the PP!! Thanks for the link!


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[Jessy2363]

don't euthenise your tank!!!! Gosh that'd be terrible. If the other fish aren't sick leave them be. I've seen this many times with the odd fish. Guppy's are common and generally this problem is genetics! Like some people who have a hunched back for example. Also one other thing it could be is wasting disease AKA hexamita. Treated with metronidazole. I had a ram who had this. Was not contagious, well it can be but hardly as the fish have to eat each others pooh to catch it and even if they did their digestive tract just pushes it out when they pass food. I mean discus for example live with this in their system and never bothers them until immune system crashes. So this will be just bad genetics or hexamita. I am going with hexamita since it is a cichlid as it's common in them especially. Often they are too far gone but you could quarantine it and give it metroplex and see how you go. By the way. hexamita is a protozoa that lives in the digestive tract and only flairs up when the fish gets stressed which lowers immune system. The protozoa then multiplies and irritates the digestive tract of the fish causing it to spit food out and loose its appetite. Obviously this poor nutrition can cause things like bent spine and thinness.

 

[Jessy2363]

don't euthenise your tank!!!! Gosh that'd be terrible. If the other fish aren't sick leave them be. I've seen this many times with the odd fish. Guppy's are common and generally this problem is genetics! Like some people who have a hunched back for example. Also one other thing it could be is wasting disease AKA hexamita. Treated with metronidazole. I had a ram who had this. Was not contagious, well it can be but hardly as the fish have to eat each others pooh to catch it and even if they did their digestive tract just pushes it out when they pass food. I mean discus for example live with this in their system and never bothers them until immune system crashes. So this will be just bad genetics or hexamita. Often they are too far gone but you could quarantine it and give it metroplex and see how you go. By the way. hexamita is a protozoa that lives in the digestive tract and only flairs up when the fish gets stressed which lowers immune system. The protozoa then multiplies and irritates the digestive tract of the fish causing it to spit food out and loose its appetite. Obviously this poor nutrition can cause things like bent spine and thinness.

Any other antibiotics wont' target hexamita. You need metronidazole. there are other drugs out there to kill this protozoa but they are not as common and difficult to get. Seachem metroplex. Or you can use Tetra parasite guard as it contains metronidazole in the ingredients. However to eradicate a bad infestation of hex you will need to use metroplex for 14 days as it is not very water soluble and tetra parasite guard is mostly for other parasites, not specifically wasting away disease.

 

[hartgirl]

Thanks for the info. Ya I'll have to look back and see who recommended euthanizing the whole tank...it's not happening either way!! I'll treat the whole tank for months if I have to just to save them.

So far, nobody else shows specific signs....I have one opaline gourami who kind of looks a little thin in the head region. I'll attach a pic...tell me what u guys think (sorry the pic is dark- he hangs out under the floating plants and the jungle Val canopy..and he was swimming non stop lol)....I did also find a dead melini cory. He was huge and idk how old he was - but he was stuck under a rock when I found him. He was fat though and could have been nothing... or a krib could have attacked him since he was close to their cave (though to my knowledge they're not spawning now...) ...idk.

Thanks for the tip on the metro.
Could I dose the whole tank with that as a precaution? Is it safe enough? Years ago I had Bala Sharks and dwarf gourami do this. Nobody else ever got it, but maybe it's been lingering and I stressed out the gold Barb with the last move?


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[Jessy2363]

Thanks for the info. Ya I'll have to look back and see who recommended euthanizing the whole tank...it's not happening either way!! I'll treat the whole tank for months if I have to just to save them.

So far, nobody else shows specific signs....I have one opaline gourami who kind of looks a little thin in the head region. I'll attach a pic...tell me what u guys think (sorry the pic is dark- he hangs out under the floating plants and the jungle Val canopy..and he was swimming non stop lol)....I did also find a dead melini cory. He was huge and idk how old he was - but he was stuck under a rock when I found him. He was fat though and could have been nothing... or a krib could have attacked him since he was close to their cave (though to my knowledge they're not spawning now...) ...idk.

Thanks for the tip on the metro.
Could I dose the whole tank with that as a precaution? Is it safe enough? Years ago I had Bala Sharks and dwarf gourami do this. Nobody else ever got it, but maybe it's been lingering and I stressed out the gold Barb with the last move?View attachment 274837


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Sorry i didn't mean to post my post twice lol. Not sure how i managed that. Anyway yes you can dose metronidazole to the entire display tank as it does not hinder the filter bed, well it does but only very slightly so you can use it in your display tank without destroying your filter bacteria. But it isn't cheap and the rest of them won't have hexamita unless they are run down also. Like I said before it only effects fish that have low immune systems and it's not something that is really contagious as in it won't effect many fish if any except the odd one that is prone to outbreaks. It's hard to explain. Cichlids are prone to it. But even they can't pass it to each other unless they're all stressed out. It's not like columnaris which is literally an emergency. I would personally take the fish out and quarantine in a separate tank. Like get a little 10 gallons or 5 gallon and keep it as a quarantine tank. Just an old dunga will do. No lights or nothing fancy. Maybe just a little cave to hide in for security. However in quarantine there is usually no filter so you need to do daily water changes 50% minimum as any slight residue of uneaten food will cause ammonia to build up and that's more toxic than the hexamita. Takes a day to build up from almost nothing. So be careful when quarantining as you can do more harm than good. You could always treat the gourami also in quarantine. Although you don't know if it's suffering from the same thing. You know you can combine metroplex (metronidazole) with Kanaplex (kanamycin) Both seachem products. I know a few people who combine the two. Metroplex is gram positive and kanaplex is gram negative so if the gourami is sick with something and it's not hexamita then you are treating it for both hexamita and something else. I'd run a 14 day course of metroplex and kanaplex combined then a 10 day treatment of seachem paraguard just incase the gourami has some random parasitic thing attacking it externally. Although in order to rule out almost all external parasites you need to treat for 3 weeks with paraguard because of the parasites lifecycles. Check the gourami for velvet also.. Look up close and see if it has any tiny little speckles, finer than ich. Littel white or copper dust speckles. If so pull out and quarantine. Metroplex kills velvet also.

Also hexamita is not the type of thing where you'd rip your tank down and start all over. Its basically a thing that lives in the gut of many fish, especially cichlids so you can't eradicate it. It just strikes one day when the fish is weak. Just knock it with metro and it's unlikely to come back. think of it this way. If a fish is still eating but is thin then it's likely internal worms. If the fish has stopped eating or is spitting food out and is getting thin then it's hexamita or something very closely related to it.

 

[hartgirl]

Thanks for all the info!! For now, I'm making sure that he is getting plenty to eat since the other fish are such hogs!! And I'll see if that perks him up. His two females look great still

They also might appreciate moving to a slightly less...rambunctious...tank lol. But we'll see...


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[Matt68005]

IMO that does look like fish TB, i would be careful and not get any other tanks sick! Or stick your hand in the water more than necessary!

 

[hartgirl]

Hard to say...I don't know if we will ever know exactly :-/

Everything has such similar symptoms...it could be old age and the stress of moving tanks twice made him susceptible to something bacterial- or even tb...but that he other fish aren't that stressed and affected....idk. I don't put my whole hand in any tank super often- but with live plants, I have weekly trimming to do, and I hand feed the eel....


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