Help! Angel and rasboras sick

[Vick]

Does anyone know what this white stuff is on my angel's eye and right fin and my rasyboras fins?

I had just finished treatment for what looked like ich but now this looks different

I've attached photos

 

[Andy Sager]

What did you use to treat for Ick?

 

[Vick]

The API super ick cure.
The rasboras had dots which I believed were ick and when I used the medication, they went away and looked healthy. I used how it was directed and did an additional dose after a water change just to be safe to get all of the ich if there's was still some left over. After 48 hrs I put my carbon filter back in which released debris from inside the filter into the water so maybe it was bacteria from in there that has started it? I only noticed my angel having a small white ring on her eye after I put the filter cartridge back in. The following day, it had grown so much and spread to her fin like the above photos and the rasboras now have it too along their fins. It looks like a bunch of white dots at the edge of their fins or a white line on the edge of their fins.

 

[Colin_T]

Hi Vick and welcome to the forum

The white stuff is excess mucous produced by the fish. Fish naturally have a thin layer of clear mucous over their body and fins. it helps them move through the water but also provides a first line of defense against disease organisms. If the fish are stressed they produce more mucous, which can appear as a cream, white or grey film or patches over all or part/s of the body.

The fish might have damaged its eye and has produced more mucous to cover the injury. However, the fact a number of fish have it on their fins would suggest a water quality issue (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) or chemicals in the water (the white spot treatment).

The best treatment for this issue is a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

------------------

How long has the tank been set up for?
What sort of filter is on the tank?
Did the pet shop tell you how to clean the filter?

 

[Andy Sager]

To add to Colin's response, understand that when you have the parasite Ick, the parasites are digging into the skin so when they leave the fish, they leave small wounds which can be an invitation for infection. The fish's natural response is to try and cover the wounds with their slime coat to help the wounds heal. At this point, I agree that it looks more like this is what you are seeing more than disease. The nitrofurazone in the Super Ick cure is an antibiotic which helps prevent bacterial disease after the fact.
The life cycle of Ick has the parasite leave the fish and bury in the substrate to reproduce which is why it's important to clean through the gravel to get these new parasites before they get on the fish. Should you see more Ick parasites on the fish again in the week or so, it doesn't mean you have a new infestation. It means that the treatment you used didn't kill off the old infestation so I would use a different Ick Med. I recommend Fritz FixIck by Fritz Aquatics.

Just so you know, Ick is more a symptom of a problem more than the problem itself. Poor water quality, rapid changes in temperature, harassment are some of the more common reasons for stress and fish get Ick when under stress. Make sure you know your water quality and keep things stable and clean and the fish should recover.

 

[Vick]

Thanks so much! Your advice helped relieve some stress and after doing a water change, the thing on her eye is much better. Now it just looks like a bit cloudy on her pupil. She's eating and acting normally.
Right now I'm battling with water quality as I think the ich meds must have affected the water.
My readings are this

Ph 6.6/6.8
Ammonia 2ppm
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10ppm
Temp 81/27

After seeing the high ammonia, I did a water change, added ammo lock and added bacteria (nutrafin cycle) last night.
Today the reading for ammonia went down to 1ppm. I'm going to do daily water changes to bring it down but I hope it doesn't upset them. Every time I do a water change since I moved to our condo in January, the water goes cloudy for days so I don't know if it's just our water or a bacterial bloom.

The filter is aquaeon 30 I believe and no, I wasn't shown how to clean it but it could be that something is off with my filter.

My tank is 29gallons.

Appreciate any further advice. I'll try and look up a video on maintaining the filter.

 

[Vick]

I did a 25% water change 6-7 hours ago, tried to get the water to as close to tank temp as possible, used water conditioner to the tap water and added the bacteria supplement. I have an air stone on full blast.
After a few hours my fish were acting a bit erratic swimming quickly etc. Again the tank water is even more cloudy than before because this always happens with my water changes and I did a water change yesterday due to my ammonia being at 1ppm so did one earlier today to try to lower it.
Now I'm seeing my angel gasping at the top for air and my other fish staying at the top as well. I'm really stumped because the air stone is on full blast and they really don't seem to like the frequent water changes but I feel I have to because of the ammonia and if they are gasping from the ammonia, I don't understand how it's not going down after all of these water changes and me adding in the bacteria to cycle the tank. My tank is very old and established but I guess the ich meds have messed up the water quality.
Any suggestions?

 

[Aiken Drum]

Is there any ammonia showing if you test your tapwater?

 

[Colin_T]

Add a double dose of dechlorinator to the aquarium now.

Wait about 10 minutes then add some carbon to the filter.

Don't do anymore water changes for a few days until we work out what is in the water.

----------------

Do you have buckets used specifically for the fish or do you use any container for water changes?

Do you have any cream, grease, soap, hand sanitiser, or anything else on your hands that might have washed off into the tank?

Do you treat the water for chlorine or chloramine?
Normally it's a single dose for chlorine and a double dose for chloramine.

Do you dechlorinate the new water before adding it to the tank?

You need to check with the water company and find out what they are adding to the water supply. Your water shouldn't go cloudy and the fish shouldn't gasp (suffocate) after a water change.

The water company is putting something in the tap water that is reacting with the aquarium water or dechlorinator. Hop on their website and find the page that tells you what is added to the drinking water, or a chemical analysis of the water supply. Post a copy of it here and we can see what they are adding.

 

[Vick]

To quickly answer your question,

I added the double dose of water conditioner (API stress coat) to the tank water like you suggested.
By carbon, I already have carbon in the new filter cartridge I put in a few days ago.
I do use a bucket that's only for cleaning my tank so there's no chemicals in it and I have been adding the water conditioner to the tap water. And my hands are clean.
As for the water company, where I live they use city water coming from our lake (Ontario, Canada) and I read they add chlorine and fluoride to the water. The only thing is that I didn't have this problem before I moved which is the same city so uses the same water besides different pipes.
When I get a chance, I'll test my tap water using my kit for it's parameters and post them.
My angel was glass surfing a few hours ago so she's stressed out or maybe it's boredom but likely stress with the water change and ammonia.

 

[Colin_T]

Glass surfing after gasping is stress from a water change. Hopefully the fish will settle down and recover.

You should still get a water report from the water company and see exactly what is in the water.

There's a possibility they did work on the pipes recently and increased the chlorine level in the water to make sure nothing was alive. Then you got some of this heavily chlorinated water and it ended up in your tank. It happens fairly frequently and the water companies don't normally tell you it has happened.

-------------------

How often and how do you normally clean your filter?

 

[Vick]

I have no idea how to get a water report or which company our city government uses to clean the water.

I found out the parameters for my tap water
Ammonia 1ppm
PH 7.8/8.0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0/5.0ppm

So now it's no wonder I keep having ammonia issues .

My current ammonia reading from today is 0.5ppm

Is there anything I can do to fix this when I have to do water changes? I have ammo lock. Do I add that in every time I do a water change?

Thanks so much for your help so far!

 

[Andy Sager]

I have no idea how to get a water report or which company our city government uses to clean the water.

I found out the parameters for my tap water
Ammonia 1ppm
PH 7.8/8.0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0/5.0ppm

So now it's no wonder I keep having ammonia issues .

My current ammonia reading from today is 0.5ppm

Is there anything I can do to fix this when I have to do water changes? I have ammo lock. Do I add that in every time I do a water change?

Thanks so much for your help so far!

There are products that remove ammonia from the water instead of just "neutralizing " (i.e. zeolite, polyfilter pads, etc) it so you can pre make water for water changes in a bucket or other tank and run a filter with these products in it for a couple of days to make sure it is gone ( always test to verify) so that it is ready when you need it.

 

[Colin_T]

The fact you have ammonia in the water says you have chloramine and not just chlorine. Chloramine is a mixture of chlorine and ammonia. It remains active and stable for a lot longer than chlorine and continues to kill things in the water for months, whereas chlorine tends to breaks down after a few days.

The fact you have an ammonia reading in the tap water says they add too much ammonia to make the chloramine and this is leaving free ammonia in the water. You can call your water company or email them and tell them they are adding too much ammonia when they make the chloramine.

You should be able to find your water company's website and phone number on any water bill. Then check their website or call them and ask them for the web address to see what is in the water. By law they have to have a water analysis report available to anyone who wants to see what is in the water.

------------------

You can deal with the free ammonia by using Ammolock or any other dechlorinator that treats chloramine, or by prefiltering the water through Zeolite (as mentioned by Andy). You can also put the tap water in a spare tank or large container and dechlorinate it. Then put some floating aquarium plants in the container to use the ammonia. When the ammonia is gone, you use that water for water changes. But most people just use a dechlorinator that treats chloramine and binds/ converts the free ammonia until the filter bacteria can remove it. Most dechlorinators only bind/ convert the ammonia for 24 hours but that is usually sufficient time for the filter bacteria to use it.

Before you do a water change, get a couple of buckets and fill them with tap water. Add enough dechlorinator to neutralise the chloramine in each bucket. Aerate the buckets with the water and dechlorinator in for about 30 minutes. Then use that water to fill the tank up. The aeration will allow the dechlorinator to come into contact with all the chloramine molecules and neutralise them so you don't poison the fish.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Typical chloramine treatment levels is 2 to 4ppm and about 25% of the chloramine will show as ammonia, so 0.5 to 1ppm of ammonia is normal for chloramine treated water. Many people keep fish just fine in chloramine treated water without doing anything out of the ordinary, and more and more people will have to going forward as chloramine will become more common as its a more effective water treatment.

You yourself managed just fine until you lost your cycle. 1ppm of ammonia will cycle out very quickly, and unless you test immediately after a water change you would probably never even notice its there.

A reasonable precaution is to use an ammonia detoxifying water conditioner like prime to minimise the risk posed by the ammonia until your cycle removes it. While you are re-establishing your cycle, do the best you can with water changes to keep it as low as you are able, and again detoxify the ammonia with a suitable water conditioner.

I wouldnt recomend anything like zeolite that removes ammonia from your aquarium as it would prevent your cycle from re-establishing. You could try and remove the ammonia from your tap water before adding it which would reduce the risk of your fish in cycle, but you have your ammonia at safer levels now, its just a matter of keeping things there until you are again cycled.

 

[Vick]

Typical chloramine treatment levels is 2 to 4ppm and about 25% of the chloramine will show as ammonia, so 0.5 to 1ppm of ammonia is normal for chloramine treated water. Many people keep fish just fine in chloramine treated water without doing anything out of the ordinary, and more and more people will have to going forward as chloramine will become more common as its a more effective water treatment.

You yourself managed just fine until you lost your cycle. 1ppm of ammonia will cycle out very quickly, and unless you test immediately after a water change you would probably never even notice its there.

A reasonable precaution is to use an ammonia detoxifying water conditioner like prime to minimise the risk posed by the ammonia until your cycle removes it. While you are re-establishing your cycle, do the best you can with water changes to keep it as low as you are able, and again detoxify the ammonia with a suitable water conditioner.

I wouldnt recomend anything like zeolite that removes ammonia from your aquarium as it would prevent your cycle from re-establishing. You could try and remove the ammonia from your tap water before adding it which would reduce the risk of your fish in cycle, but you have your ammonia at safer levels now, its just a matter of keeping things there until you are again cycled.

Thank so much everyone for the advice! I never would have figured this all out and probably would have thought my fish had a disease when it was just the water not being the correct parameters and stressing them out.
I currently use API Stress Coat which I have been liking so far because it seems to help heal my fish whenever they have tears and looks like it helped my Angels eye create more mucous when I used it to replace the slime coat. It does say that it removes chlorine and chloramines from water and detoxifies heavy metals. The dosage is 5ml/10gallons and double dosage if I want to replace the slime coat for sick fish. Is this good enough? I have used prime but I found the instructions to be very confusing with how powerful it is and the small dosages and trying to figure out the amount to put in my 1litre bucket. It got to the point where I had to put the tap water in my tank first and then add the prime to my tank. I didn't feel confident using it.
Is there anything else I should do to help cycle my tank? I use the bacterial supplement whenever I change the water and weekly. When should I do another water change? The last one was Monday.

Thanks again! ?

 

[Aiken Drum]

Stresscoat doesnt detoxify ammonia. Prime does promote slimecoat (although maybe not as much a stresscoat) as well as treating chlorine/ chloramine and detoxifying ammonia.

Dont try and treat your new water bucket by bucket. Remove your old water, add enough dechlorinator into the tank to treat the whole tank, refill the tank. Your method of adding dechlorinator after the water change is just fine too as long as you remember to do it fairly quickly after your water change.

Ill preface this last bit as being opinion only, and others may well disagree.

Stresscoat promotes slimecoat through an aloe vera additive. Aloe vera is a polymerised sugar and promotes slimecoat by irritating the fish to get a response from the immune system. It coats fishes gills and makes them less efficient. The aloe vera depolymerises in the water releasing sugar. None of this seems a good idea to me. Personally i choose a dechlorinator purely on the cost/ water change. Stresscoat is very expensive. Prime or API tap water conditioner usually come out as the cheapest per water change and prime has those added benefits. For these reasons i changed from stresscoat to prime. No noticable ill effects with my fish, and maybe £100 saving over the course of a year.

 

[Caliban07]

Help! Angel and rasyboras sick

You can also buy something called Seachem ammonia alert. I keep them in my tanks all the time and they measure free ammonia. They are much more useful than the api test kit.

You have had a lot of information all at once and you have done well to take it all in and arrive at this point.

So I’ll try to explain this. Ammonia has two forms ammonium which is non toxic and ammonia which is referred to as toxic free ammonia. If you imagine a scale with ammonium on the left and ammonia on the right and a marker in the middle the marker slides towards ammonium when the pH is low and slides up towards toxic ammonia when the pH is high. The seachem ammonia alert sits in the tank and only measures toxic ammonia. It changes colour. The api test measures ammonium and ammonia combined and requires messing about constantly with glass tubes and liquid drops.

Cloudy water is a bad sign. It used to happen to me a lot after a water change but I have a planted tank and used to disturb the substrate a lot when moving plants around. Still this is not a good sign. As mentioned it means something is off with your cycle. What a lot of people fail to realise is that ammonia is not only toxic to the fish it is toxic to microbes. When you have an ammonia spike, it it likely kills a lot of organisms that release more ammonia as they die. Filters can only handle the amount of ammonia your tank creates on a daily basis. If the ammonia reduces then the ammonia nitrifying bacteria will recede to match the input so if you have a sudden influx of ammonia then the filter will not handle it efficiently. If it does then you will see nitrates creep up. However, if you destroy your cycle then ammonia can wreak havoc as you have seen.

You’re in good hands though now. Though I often worry about advice here to constantly disturb the gravel bed by cleaning (especially since not everyone has gravel) and excessive amounts of water changes. 50% should be all that is required to keep parameters stable though they need to be consistent.

Good luck

 

[Vick]

All great information! I'll try going back to prime (if it hasn't expired lol) and try those seachem ammonia readers.
Now that my cycle is compromised, what should I do to get it back to normal? Or should I just let it be?
And when do you think I should do my next water change so as to not create cloudy water and make my cycle worse?
I'm happy to say right now all fish seem happy, tank water is almost clear and my angel's fin has started to heal and the cloudy pupil is very faint. Crossing my fingers this isn't short lived!
Thanks so much for the help figuring all this out. Definitely has explained some of my fish loss in the past.

 

[Aiken Drum]

I would try and keep ammonia + nitrite combined no higher than 0.5ppm. That might be difficult with chloramine adding ammonia in with every water change, so if thats an unachievable target then try and keep ammonia and nitrite individually below 0.5ppm. If thats unacheivable as low as you are able to manage. If parameters get above your target then change some water.

To give you some guidance at your pH and temperature, ammonia is starting to get toxic at around 0.5ppm and at 1.0ppm your fish are in immediate danger.

https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html