Help! Can my fish tolerate 86?

[mljordaa]

Hi, I am relatively new to this fantastic hobby (6 months) after inheriting two fabulous Betta's from friends that emigrated. They where kept in horribly small tanks and we slowly upgraded them to 60 litre tanks with the following tank-mates:
Each tank contains:
1 Betta
10 Tetra neons
2 plecos (still small..)
4 shrimp
And recently 3 clown loaches

To my horror we almost completely lost the one tank now! First one loach died, and then a few tetras. I tried to isolate them in a quarantine Tank and completed the recommended treatment (Furanol 2). Put them back, and of the 20 in both tanks we now have 4 left... My prize Betta also died (I actually cried) and now I see what appears to be Ich on my Loaches. There were no Ich symptoms on the Betta.

I want to save them ASAP but are nervous of using meds (I bought costapur F and Mycopur) but read on previous posts temperature might be a better method.

Please can someone give me some advice? We are in Switzerland and there are 0 reliable LFS around. Only a big supermarket chain which has almost as many dead fish floating in their tanks as live ones...

Thanks

 

[mljordaa]

Ps: we are rigorous with keeping the partial water changes up (every weekend 30%) and do a gravel vac as well. All indicators seem in range (tested with strips and more complicated test kits)

 

[Fishfur]

I am sorry for the loss, and it's good you tried to improve matters for the Bettas, but you got far too many of the wrong sorts of fish and you do not say if the tanks were cycled. Did you cycle the tanks before adding fish ? Do you have filters, and if so, what kind and how do you clean them ?

What are the parameters the tests show now ? Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH.

60 litres is only about 13 UK gallons. Clown loaches grow to great size and are very particular about water and swimming space and should have at least some live food. Also sensitive to salt, being very fine scaled fishes, like catfish. Plecs also sensitive to salt.

It's sad, but the loaches were doomed not to do well in tanks of this size. Almost all plecs great to be quite large too, and will soon outgrow the space, if they haven't already. They are dirty fish.. big eaters who produce a lot of waste, so not a great fish for this size tank either.

Neons would have been ok.. a school is what they like, and they might have been ok with just a Betta. Shrimp may be eaten by Bettas, what kind of shrimp are they ? Shrimp may not handle salt well. Bettas can handle salt easily, and many use salt in their water all the time.

Bettas, generally, don't get on that well with most other fish, but some do. Depends on the Betta and how aggressive it may be. But crowding fish is stressful and stress alone can kill. I think when you added the loaches it was just too much fish and too much stress for the space available. If the tank was not cycled, it would have added a lot more ammonia, too much.

As for Ich, yes, usually it can be cured with heat, or with some aquarium salt to help. Kosher or pickling salt, even pure sea salt is also good. Salt is toxic to the ich parasite while it is free swimming, more than it is to the fish, but heat speeds the life cycle and will kill the ich unless it is a heat resistant strain.

I don't know if this heat resistant strain is common in Europe.. we see it here and there in Canada, and Florida is said to have it. Mostly heat and salt are the usual treatments, less toxic than meds, which are often not effective, and copper based meds will kill any invert, like shrimp or snails. They don't carry ich so can be removed to a QT while treatment is done for other fish.

Read up on ich, so you will know how it works. Frequent water changes and thorough vacuuming of the substrate helps physically remove the parasites while the heat does its work. Let me find an article that explains ich very well for you to read.

Try here. http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ich.php

Explains it better than I could typing a long post. I really am sorry this happened, I hope the future holds better news for you.

 

[mljordaa]

Aargh!! I am super disappointed! Bought the botias on advice from my LFS and although I did read up on them I neglected to check their size.... Duh!!

Tank was cycled, have a filter (EHEM) that we clean as well every weekend when be do the water change (rinsing the sponges with luke warm water)

I hope my poor loaches survive the next week or two... They are still quite small?
I will take them to another shop in a neighbouring town, hopefully they will take them. I just need to get them healthy first. Think I'll leave one pleco in each tank, and will get 5/6 tetras. The shrimp are not ghost shrimp, but also "see-through" shrimp, I neglected to get the name when I bought them. One actually have eggs under her tail (what do you call that?) for the past few weeks - will they hatch?

This has been a very expensive learning curve... Especially since I did try to make sure of my facts beforehand. I should really invest in a good, comprehensive fish book!

Thanks a lot for your reply!

 

[Fishfur]

We live and if we pay attention, we learn. Fish stores, sadly, don't always make sure their staff actually know much about what they are selling, especially if it isn't a fish only pet store. Clown loaches, while entertaining and very attractive, are not the best beginner fish even if you have large enough tanks.

When you clean the filters, do you use tank water or tap water ? Tap water, if chlorinated, which it usually is, can kill the BB you need to convert the ammonia. Use tank water, or dechlorinated water if the tank water has parasites in it. It would not be good to use for rinsing if it has parasite. But usually, the water from a water change is good to rinse filters.

They also don't need to be cleaned weekly, unless they are becoming clogged that fast. I do mine about twice a month, on 30 G tanks with a fair stocking level. On my little frog tank, which is around ten gallons, I only clean the very small filter about once a month, as the frogs don't clog it up nearly so much as fish do.

Squeeze out sponge really well, it can last for years and years. Floss is great for water polishing, and also easy to clean and lasts for a long time before it gets raggedy and needs to be replaced.

Is this a canister filter or the kind that hangs on the back .. HOB in short ?

Shrimp can certainly hatch their eggs, but whether you have babies or not depends on the species. Some have young like themselves, which will grow up if they are not eaten by fish, and most fish will eat them when they are tiny. Sme have larval stages first, and many may need salt water to develop before they morph into shrimplets. If you can learn the species, it will help a lot.

 

[mljordaa]

Well, I read the info on the link you posted, and will now proceed with the salt and 86 degrees (30c) treatment... Wish me luck! I was so attached to my two Betta's , they come when I call them and eat out of my hand... I will be devastated if I loose the other one as well!

 

[Fishfur]

Wish you success. It is a harsh learning curve, but you are not alone, it happens more often than it should. I think stores that sell fish should at least hand out instructions on basic cycling before they sell fish to a new owner.. it might help avoid this kind of thing, but I suspect some of them figure, oh well, fish will die and then they'll buy more.

I wonder if it's not more like, fish will die and then new hobbyist gets depressed and loses interest. Good luck.