Help needed fast please

[Barbs]

Hi All,

I really hope someone can help me help my fish. I did a 25% water change on Saturday and I did the most stupid thing...I forgot to condition the tap water! I have no idea why I didn't think of it but I'm kicking myself now.

I went out for a couple of hours and when I came home I noticed the plants in the tank were covered in white fluffy spots and the roots had a fluffy white hair-like growth on them. Within an hour my two black moors had white powdery spots on their fins which spread to their bodies over the course of 36 hours.

When I first noticed the plants I remembered the tap water conditioner, added the recommended dose and hoped for the best. First thing (Easter) Sunday morning when the lfs opened, I explained what was happening to the assistant and she said it sounded like a fungal infection. She recommended Pimafix. I got home, put Nutrafin cycle in followed by the recommended dose of Pimafix, took out the carbon filter and turned up the airstones, temp 21 degrees. As I was going away for the night I wasn't able to monitor them, unfortunately.

I returned this evening to find the moors fins are ragged and it looks like fin rot, the white spots are fading but have spread to their bodies. They're eating, swimming, pooping normal but look awful, I feel so bad for them because I know it's my fault! Along with that, the new chocolate orandas I introduced 2 weeks ago are bullying them, which is horrible to see.

Can anyone explain what is going on? What should I do? What meds can be recommended?

I'll go back to the lfs first thing in the morning but it'd be nice to know what I'm dealing with first. Also forgot to mention the water parameters- Ph-7.6, Ammonia-0, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-0, is this ok?

Maybe the tank is overstocked? I have a 180l tank with 2 black moors, 2 chocolate orandas, 2 chocolate/blue orandas, 1 calico pearlscale, 1 globe eye?, 1 hillstream loach, 2 bloodfin tetras (I think) & 4 wcm minniows. Now that I read it, it sure seems like a lot! Theres also 3 plants and 2 airstones along with the inbuilt filter (not sure of the type).

Any help greatly appreciated. I'm so worried these guys aren't going to survive and I'd really like to help them any way I can. Thanks in advance.

 

[SWerner13]

Do regular, proper watcher changes, that always helps. Raising the temp won't help much with ich (the white spots) as the temp needs to be raised to around 86 to get results. If your fish are bullying the sick ones then quarantine the sick somehow, either with a divider or another tank. How long has your tank been set up? Your tank is a bit over stocked at least for when they are full grown. 8 gold fish plus others is a lot and they are EXTREMELY messy fish anyway. I'm not a fan of medicine, I would focus on getting all conditions perfect and hope for the best. Perfect water and isolation is my advice. If there is medicine others recommend, go for it, I just don't have enough experience to recommend a proper one.

 

[Zagz]

White fluffy spots sound like fungus or bacterial infection. It does not sound like ich. Not adding dechlorinator will not cause the symptoms you are describing. What kind of test kits are you using? Liquid or strip? How long has the tank been set up? A cycled tank should have some nitrates, esp with that bio load.

Your tank is approx 47 gals and is way overstocked. The best thing you can do is water changes every couple of days. For goldfish 10 gals per fish minimum is recommended. You need to decide whether to get a bigger tank or return some of the fish.

For the illness at hand I would try treating with something like Jungle's fungus elliminator which works for both fungus and bacterial infections.

 

[SWerner13]

Good call, I just glanced at the white spots thing, I assumed, because ich is so common to us all.

 

[asudavew]

I agree, the water change and white spots are unrelated.

I would guess.... the new fish that were added two weeks ago carried the disease.

Chlorine wouldn't cause it, but it sure can kill fish quickly!

 

[Barbs]

Hi All,

Thanks so much for the quick replies, I really appreciate it. I've taken your advice and quarantined the moors, I put them in their old tank today, it's quite small so not really ideal but it's better than being nipped at! I filled it with the water from the large tank and replaced the water in the large tank with conditioned tap water. I also took the affected plants out and dumped them in the bin as I've no idea what was on them and didn't want to risk more infections.

They still seem quite normal but appearance wise they look dreadful. I'm still treating with Pimafix, the guy in the lfs recommended I finish the dose. I haven't been able to locate the jungle med as of yet but I'll keep looking and hopefully will come across it soon. I've also bought Interpet anti fungus & finrot, just to have at hand, though I'm not sure if this is any good.

I'm not sure what to do about the water parameters. I'm using API freshwater master test kit and the tank has been set up just over 5 weeks now so perhaps it's got new tank syndrome, which I'm unsure as to what that is!!

I'm undecided what to do about the fish, I can try to re-home a few of them as I don't know if the lfs will take them back (forgot to ask today). The reason I put so many in is because I was advised to put a good few in so they wouldn't grow huge, according to the lfs, the more in the tank the smaller the adult size of the fish. I was actually told I could fit 20 fish comfortably in the tank! I wasn't going to go that far but I should have checked out the amount of fish I could fit in before buying. Ah well, you live and learn, I'll know better in future!

I suppose I'll just have to keep medicating, watch them and hope for the best. I really hope they pull through, I'd hate to lose them after having them so long, in nearly 2 years this is the first time they've been really sick, it's so sad. I'm glad it's not the water that made them sick although after this I don't think I'll ever forget to condition it again!

Thanks & regards,
Barbs.

 

[jsoong]

You definitely cannot put 20 Goldfish in that tank .... 20 white clouds, sure, but wc's are like 1/50 the mass of a full grown goldfish.

Realistically, about 6 2-3" golds are all you can fit in that size tank, and that is considered overstocked & will require work to keep water parameters stable. 4 full grown fancies (4-6") is a more manageable number.

It is bad advice to crowd goldfish so they won't get big. Stunted goldfish are sickly & prone to disease. They will also die early. <The myth going around is that goldfish will only grow to fit their surroundings .... It is only true in that goldfish will grow so big in crowded conditions before they die! .... sorry for the rant!>

ATM, your water parameters seem to be in order (0/0/0 is good). You prob. have small fish. But as they grow, it will get more & more difficult to keep things under control, and bullying will get worse in crowded conditions. I will strongly suggest you try to re-home some of your fish. It will save you a lot of grief down the road.

I also don't think that the water change without dechlor caused the illness. Fish can live with a small amount of chloramines/chlorine. The bio-filter is more sensitive. Usu. what happens is the chlorine kills the biofilter, and you get a mini-cycle with ammonia/nitrite spikes & that in turn kills/stresses the fish. It takes a few days to see the spike so your disease is likely coincidental. <To be safe, it would be wise to monitor the water parameters for the next week or so to make sure your bio-filter is intact.>

The white fuzzy things in the plants are likely unrelated to the fish's finrot. It is likely a fungus, maybe from rotting uneaten food. I would suggest a good gravel vac to clean out any detritus in the tank.

The moors' finrot might well be from the bullying. Seperating them & QT'ing is a good thing. Just make sure to keep the water super clean & they should grow back. You may as well continue with Primafix since you started with it. Although, usu. for simple fin-rot, clean water & a bit of salt is all that is needed. If things are not improving, I usu. go for medicated food next.

 

[Barbs]

Hi All,
I'm on day four of the pimafix and no change! The moors in the quarantine tank are not themselves at all. One is sitting on the gravel and the other is hovering above it, they're not really interested in food, usually they'll rush up to get it, now they're just eating it if it floats by. They still have the spots and fins look the same. I'm wondering if they're miserable in the little tank or dying?

This evening I noticed 3 fish in the big tank have the spots now too, even though I'm treating it with the pimafix also. I don't know whats going on or how to fix it. The pimafix seems useless so far. I have Interpet anti-fungus & finrot, if I do a water change could I add that to the tank and see if it improves? Would mixing pimafix and interpet in the one tank do any harm? I've been to a few of lfs in the area and none of them had the jungle med or medicated food so I'm limited to what I can get. Water parameters are still the same.

I will re-home some of them but I'd like to get them well first, if they pull through! I'll be devastated if they die, especially the moors. I feel like I'm going round in circles and getting nowhere, I've been searching the net for solutions but to no avail. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Barbs.

 

[jsoong]

Sorry to hear about your troubles.....

I don't think the fish are "miserable" because of the tank size. Goldies always go for food, no matter what ... If they are off food, something is wrong.

First, make sure your water parameters are good. I know your testing is showing 0/0/0 .... but make sure there is no test error (perhaps have a lfs test it). I am saying this because in my experience, golds in small setup will almost always show some nitrates, unless you are doing lots of water changes .... So I am just ruling out test errors .... please don't take offense.

I don't have a lot of faith in "natural" remedies like Primifix or Malafix. Personally, right after clean water, i treat with salt, and if the fish is sick I go for antibiotics. The white spots are most likely bacterial infections (even the so call fungus is usually columnaris, a bacteria, & not likely true fungus.)
Your best bet is Kanamycin if you can get it (in food if possible, otherwise use it in water.) <I have a recipe for making your own antibiotics food if you want to try.> Next best would be Erythromycin or possibly tetracycline. Note that any antibiotic use in water may kill your biofilter, so it is imperative that you monitor the water parameters & do pwc as needed.

I am not familiar with the Interpet drugs. I will do some research & get back to you. I have to run at this point.

 

[jsoong]

I cannot find an ingredient list for Interpet stuff. I am always wary of drugs that claim to have "several active ingredients" that are "patented" and kept secret. Not knowing what a drug contains, I cannot give an informed opinion on it.

I am assuming that the spots are still white & fuzzy & no other signs appeared. To confirm the diagnosis, you might want to look at these:
Flexibacter Columnaris - Disease Profile
Goldfish and Aquarium Board (GAB) Article - Diagnosing Symptoms

If it appears the fish has columnaris - aka Flexibacter -(or some other bacteria infection), my suggestions:
1. Keep water clean - do daily pwc's (25-50%) regardless of parameters, esp. in the smaller tank. (Test the water tho.) Maintain same water chemistry & temp in your change water so as not to stress the fish.
2. Add salt & maintain at a level of 0.1-0.2% (prevents secondary infections, esp. external parasites.)
3. Maintain lowish temp (20-21C) - high temp is supposed to make columnaris worse.
4. Feed an antibiotic containing food - in order of preference: Kanamycin, Metronidazole, Erythromycin, Tetracycline, Sulfonamides.
This is a list of medicated foods in NA, don't know if any is available in the UK:
The Goldfish and Aquarium Board (GAB) Articles - Medicated Food Explained and Explored
If you feel like making your own, this is the recipe:
Goldfish and Aquarium Board Article-Medicated Gel Food
5. If you cannot get anti-biotic food, or if fish is not eating, then you will need to resort to antibiotics in water. In order of preference: Kanamycin, Erythromycin+Minocyclin (Maracyn I & II), tetracycline. (As mentioned before, watch your bio-filter if using antibiotics in water.)

In the future, always quarantine new fish .... I suspect that the disease is introduced with one of your new additions.

Good luck with your fish ..... keeping fingers crossed.

 

[Barbs]

Hi jsoong,

Thank you so much for all your help & advice, I really appreciate it, it's been very informative.

The moors seem fine now (touch wood!). They're still in the QT tank but thankfully are active and eating, fungus is nearly gone and fins look much better, a major improvement so far. I'm so happy they pulled through but I'm going to keep them in there for a few weeks to make sure they're 100% better and to give me time to sort out the big tank.

Unfortunately the same can't be said for the others in the big tank, they now seem to have ich! I've just done a 50% water change and added King British White Spot Control, half dose because I don't want to harm the loach. The carbon is still removed and I'll test the water parameters later today. I'll do another water change in 48 hours as suggested on the bottle of white spot control, unless you think I should do it everyday?

I've also noticed one of the orandas has red blood spots on his body. He doesn't have a lot of white spots, just a few, so I'm wondering if this is a secondary infection or if he's scraped himself on one of the ornaments?

I feel as if the tank is crashing before ours eyes! All I can do is hope everything works out and maintain it as best I can, it really is becoming a full time job at this stage .

Thanks again,
Barbs.

 

[jsoong]

I am glad the moors are looking better!

With the ich & everything else going on in the big tank, I am wondering if it is cycling. In spite of big water changes, it is still possible to have ammonia spikes. You might want to double check your water parameters.

For now, I would follow the instructions on the ich treatment. The only exception if if you have high ammonia or nitrites, in which case you will need to do a pwc & re-dose an appropriate amount of meds to keep a constant level. For most anti-ich meds, the standard treatment is a large water change & re-dosing every 48 hours.

Regarding red spots - Orandas are more sensitive to water conditions than others. Red veins in fins may well be from ammonia burns. It is also possible there is a secondary infection. Better description & maybe a pic might help.

I don't know the situation in the UK, but here, goldfish in stores are ladden with disease, and most serious hobbyist are advocating a 1 month quarantine & prophylactic treatment with salt & praziquental (for external & internal parasites respectively.) It is getting to be major work (with daily water changes, etc in the QT) to add any fish to an existing setup.

 

[Barbs]

I am glad the moors are looking better!

With the ich & everything else going on in the big tank, I am wondering if it is cycling. In spite of big water changes, it is still possible to have ammonia spikes. You might want to double check your water parameters.

For now, I would follow the instructions on the ich treatment. The only exception if if you have high ammonia or nitrites, in which case you will need to do a pwc & re-dose an appropriate amount of meds to keep a constant level. For most anti-ich meds, the standard treatment is a large water change & re-dosing every 48 hours.

Regarding red spots - Orandas are more sensitive to water conditions than others. Red veins in fins may well be from ammonia burns. It is also possible there is a secondary infection. Better description & maybe a pic might help.

I don't know the situation in the UK, but here, goldfish in stores are ladden with disease, and most serious hobbyist are advocating a 1 month quarantine & prophylactic treatment with salt & praziquental (for external & internal parasites respectively.) It is getting to be major work (with daily water changes, etc in the QT) to add any fish to an existing setup.

I checked the water parameters in the big tank a couple of hours after adding the ich med, they are-
PH- 7.6
Ammonia- 0-25 (colour looked in-between the two)
Nitrate- 0
Nitrite- 0
The tank will be set up 7 weeks tomorrow so I guess it still could be cycling. I'll test the water parameters again tomorrow and do another pwc on Tuesday and re-dose as necessary, unless you think it would be fatal leaving them with that ammonia level for 48 hours?

I also tested the QT tank and the water parameters seem crazy to me:
PH- 7.2
Ammonia- 0.50 - 1 (again the colour was in-between)
Nitrate- 5
Nitrite- 0
I'm just waiting for the water to come up to room temp and then I'm doing a 50% water change and a re-dose of the meds. Tomorrow I'll test the water again and hopefully it'll improve.

I just can't get a pic of the Oranda, it's hard to pin him down, I'll try again tomorrow. The best way I can describe it is like the scale has lifted from his body but is still attached and under there's a small raised bump with a blood spot on it. Do you think the ammonia spike is enough to have caused it? Also do you think the ich med will help it heal?

The LFS are much the same here, I've seen some fish in terrible condition lately. After doing a lot of searching I bought my fish from the cleanest lfs, all the fish looked to be in top condition but obviously looks are deceiving! I know now that I'll never add a fish or plant without QTing first, I've really learned my lesson the hard way!

Sorry for all the questions again!

Thanks,
Barbs.

 

[jim692]

Sounds like your tanks are cycling (or recycling depending on the meds added to the tank).
Do you know anyone who has a healthy tank that you could get some used filter media from or a filter squeeze? It would give your cycle a jump start. Add the material after a PWC for full effect.
I would do daily PWC's to keep the water readings in line till you get the tanks bio cycle fully established. You want to keep the ammonia and nitrite readings as low as possible to avoid adding more stress to the fish.

 

[jsoong]

It certainly looks like your tank is cycling. <You prob. never had a chance to cycle the small tank since you had to move the moors there in a hurry ... that & the fact that is is smaller is the reason for the higher ammonia.> You certainly need to be doing daily water changes, esp. in the small tank. Ideally, you want to keep ammonia less than 0.5 at all times. <And nitrites less than 0.25.> Do as much water changes as needed to keep things under control. I am afraid it will be a lot of work for the next while.

Meds often can mess with the biofilter. Hopefully, the big tank is just undergoing a mini-cycle & you won't get high spikes. Seeding the tanks like Jim said is helpful, but you might want to wait till after you done medicating the tank. <since the meds may kill off any culture you add .... although if you have a large source of bacterial culture, you can seed now & later after medicating.>

As for the oranda, a single blood spot under a scale is likely just from trauma. I would just watch for now. You fish should stand a good chance of recovering from the illness if you can keep the water parameters in check.

 

[Barbs]

Good news! All our little cuties are doing great, ich is nearly gone, just the odd spot left, also the red blood spots have cleared up too, everyone is looking healthy and happy. The moors in the QT tank are looking good too, the fungus has cleared and they're acting normal again, I'm looking forward to putting them back in the big tank soon.

I haven't checked the water parameters today yet as I put the meds in a while ago and I don't seem to get a proper reading for a few hours so I'll check later. I've managed to keep the ammonia under control so far by doing the daily water changes, as advised, it was hard work at the start but I'm actually starting to enjoy it now, especially when the results are good !

I'm so relieved they've pulled through. I don't think there would have been such a happy ending without all the advice I got from here, I really appreciate everyone's help.

Thank you everyone, especially jsoong .

 

[jsoong]

Glad that everything is turning out well. Well done! Give yourself a pat on the back!

 

[Barbs]

Well there I was thinking I was out of the woods!

Disaster struck last night. I was waiting for a bowl of water to come up to room temp to do a pwc in the QT tank. I wandered into the kitchen to check the temp and noticed one of the moors lying on his side at the bottom of the tank. I immediately called for help (namely my other half ) and told him to get them into the fresh water while I checked the parameters of the tank. Total disaster- ammonia was about 6.0! I couldn't believe it, I had only done a pwc the night before and had been doing them everyday before that.

As the tank is small, we did a 100% wc, cleaned gravel and filter and filled it up with conditioned tap water, stuck the heater in (from the big tank, as we don't use it there) and waited until it came up to 21 degrees. We then put the moors back in and waited.

After very little sleep last night, I was dreading coming downstairs this morning to see if they were alive. Lo and behold, they were! I'll say one thing- they sure are fighters ! I checked the ammonia again and it was 0.25, vast improvement but not ideal. I did another 50% wc about an hour ago and have another bowl coming up to temp for later on.

I also noticed they had gained a few more white spots, not as bad as last time yet. I'm wondering if it's safe to put the meds in while the tank is so unpredictable? I don't want to cause another ammonia spike as I reckon the shock will kill them altogether. The poor little things have been through enough at this stage!

I'm going to do two pwc a day to keep the ammonia down and I've stopped feeding them and won't for a few days. Is there anything else I can/should do?

I'd appreciate any advice.

Thanks & regards,
Barbs.

p.s- jsoong, I'll hold off on the 'pat on the back' for now, lol!

 

[jsoong]

It is definitely a challenge to manage goldies in a small tank ... esp. one that is cycling. You are doing fine ....

Personally, I think that clean water is much more important than meds. <I often do daily 100% water changes in a hospital setup.> Are the white spots ich spots? Or something else?

Some suggestions:
1. Hospital tanks are best left bare bottomed. Gravel gives parasites & wastes places to hide. You prob got the big spike because of waste collected over the last week or so decomposing in the gravel. With a bare bottom tank, it is much easier to remove waste with your daily water changes.
2. Adding meds will prob not change things too much in the hospital tank. You don't have an established bio-filter & it is going to be unstable regardless. So it is back to monitoring the levels & pwc's. However, with your water changes, you will need to re-dose an appropriate amount of meds with each water change. If you are dealing with ich, you can use the ich meds you have or salt. <Advantage of salt is it won't kill your biofilter ... but that is a moot point.>
3. If you are having problem managing the hospital tank's water, you might consider moving to a larger setup. I use a 30 gal rubbermaid tub as my QT/hospital. It is far easier to keep stable water parameters in a larger container without a working biofilter.

Good luck!

 

[Barbs]

Well we lost our beautiful Iggy tonight ! We're absolutely devastated & the thoughts of breaking the news to our 5 year old son in the morning is worse.

I just couldn't stabilize the ammonia. I did 5 pwc today try to get it down and nothing worked! The lowest I got was 0.25. I had to leave for a few hours today and when I got home the first thing I did was check the ammonia again, it was back up to 0.50. I did another pwc, luckily I had set aside a bowl of conditioned water, and checked again, back to 0.25! I even checked my tap water but it came up 0, so I don't know whats going on.

Iggy wasn't looking too good, very lethargic and floating vertically in the water, then onto his side. I took him out and put him into another bowl of fresh water and he just floated around, still on his side. He was barely breathing, if at all, so we did the most humane thing we could think of and put him out of his misery .

Ziggy is still in the QT tank, not looking great but better than Iggy was. I have a large bucket, just over a foot wide, with 20 litres of water in it waiting to to come up to temp. I'm going to put Ziggy in there & see how he gets on. Tomorrow I'll buy a larger container and some salt and try that. I think the spots are ich, they're mainly concentrated on his face and haven't seemed to spread as far as I can tell. There's about 6-7 in total. They look like salt grains and are completely different than the fungus spots. Hopefully the salt will sort them out.

I had a live plant in the QT tank to provide a hiding place for them. I've taken it out now and was wondering if I should bin it or sterilize it and put it back in the big tank?

I also noticed little white 'balls' in the bowl where Iggy was dying. I have no idea what they are but they definitely weren't there before I put him in. I have taken a pic to see if you can identify them but unfortunately I can't get a good close-up of them as my camera is rubbish!

I was also wondering if I could keep a spare filter media for the QT tank in my main filter in the big tank, just in-case I need to use the qt tank again?