Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > Freshwater > Freshwater & Brackish - Unhealthy Fish
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 10-25-2021, 03:53 PM   #1
Aquarium Advice Newbie
 
candre39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 8
I'm new and need assistance

Hello everyone! I am new to the fish tank life. I just got a 15 gallon tank for my birthday. I was given two African dwarf frogs, one black copper male betta, and 10 neon tetras. Within 2-5 days of putting my fish in the tank all 10 of my neon tetras died. The last neon tetra looked like it came down with ich (flashing and covered in crystals) I ordered the treatment to treat my tank for ich but then he died (the last neon tetra) My male beta now has clamped fins but no other signs of ich. I have the treatment to treat ich that I bought from the pet store, however I'm worried about hurting my African dwarf frogs. Also reading online I found that the fish might have had what was called shock induced ich which shouldn't be treated the same as regular ich? I want to know the best way to proceed, I have been doing 25-30% weekly water changes, and bought a reverse osmosis water distiller I use to change the water. And I'm adding in a portion of tap water to make sure they are still getting some of the stripped water nutrients. My betta fish swims around and he seems to be fine. All but the clamped fins. He will eat, and he does sleep in his little cave. But he doesn't seem to be overly lethargic. I'm just worried because My neon tetras that died did seem to have ich, so I don't know if I should treat the tank. And if I do, if I should take my frogs out. Also I do test my water daily, the only thing I could find was that the water was hard. Which my reverse osmosis water distiller should take care of. I also have a filter and a water heater that keeps my tank between 74 and 78°

__________________
candre39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2021, 04:10 PM   #2
Aquarium Advice Newbie
 
candre39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 8
Images

Here are images of my poor beta
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PXL_20211025_190454793.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	197.4 KB
ID:	322078   Click image for larger version

Name:	PXL_20211025_190437672.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	165.6 KB
ID:	322079  

Click image for larger version

Name:	PXL_20211025_190443339.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	193.8 KB
ID:	322080   Click image for larger version

Name:	PXL_20211025_185903836.jpg
Views:	14
Size:	219.4 KB
ID:	322081  

__________________
candre39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2021, 05:26 PM   #3
Aquarium Advice Addict
Community Moderator
 
Aiken Drum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 2,345
There could be a few things going on here. Long post, so have a sit down and get a cup of tea.

Firstly are you aware of the nitrogen cycle and how to cycle a tank? Cycling a tank typically takes a couple of months. This can be done before you add fish or after you add fish. If you cycle with fish, and stock as heavily as you did you would need much bigger and more regular water changes than you where doing to keep the water safe while your cycle establishes.

You mention that you do daily water tests. Can you post the latest results. pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. While you may think they are good, seeing actual results may tell people who know what to look for some insight. Did you see any elevated parameters previously?

Onto ich. Ive never heard of shock induced ich and cant find anything when i search for the term. Can you post a link to where you found a reference to this?

Ich is something that is likely present in a lot of tanks without their owners knowing about it. Healthy fish, with a good immune system can be infected and not show any symptoms. When the fishes immune system is compromised then the ich parasite takes advantage and the visual signs of infection become apparent. I wonder if this is the source of shock induced ich? The fish where already infected with ich, otherwise unhealthy from fish store conditions as well, and the shock of the move, probably into an uncycled tank compromises the fishes immune system and ich takes hold. The reason for the different treatment for shock induced ich is you have to treat the cause of the ill health as well the ich?

Even though the infected fish are now dead, ich is now present in the tank. It will always be present while there are fish in the tank until you properly treat. If those fish remain otherwise healthy you may never see any signs of ich, but it will be there waiting for an opportunity.

Me personally, i would remove the betta to a quarantine tank rather than move the frogs. 3 to 5 gallons and treat the betta in the QT. Raise the temp to 30c and medicate for a week, plenty of water changes, gravel vacs if you add substrate to the QT. At 30c the ich lifecycle is shortened to under a week and the medication will have chance to kill the parasite during its freeswimming stage. If the betta survives the 1 week quarantine period you know that fish and that tank is ich free. You can return the temp to its normal level until you return the betta to the 15g.

Leave the frogs in the 15g tank for at least a month before adding any fish. Again plenty of water changes and gravel vac the substrate. With no fish for hosts in the 15g the ich parasite cant survive its whole life cycle and will die. A month at tropical aquarium temperatures should be longer than the ich lifecycle.

Don't medicate the tank with frogs. They wont do well with the medication.

I went into ich lifecycle a little more on this thread if you want to have a little more reading.

https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...om-377867.html

Good luck.
__________________
Aiken Drum
Community Moderator
Aiken Drum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2021, 06:25 PM   #4
Aquarium Advice Newbie
 
candre39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 8
Thank you so much, this is very helpful.
The water test I took this morning showed the following:
Alkalinity /carbonate hardness (KH) is at 150-200
PH is at 6.8
Chlorine is at 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5-10
General hardness is at 0-50
My test strips must be limited because I do not see an ammonia reading.
I am unware of the nitrogen cycle for a new tank, I tried to do as much research as I could before starting my tank, but due to it being a gift I tried to get the fish into the water as soon as possible cause it was cold where I live (I did acclimatize them slowly by floating their containers for awhile in the new tank, and then slowly adding water into their individual containers before adding them to the tank) I assume I messed up somehow and am anxious to do what I can to remedy the situation.
I will be picking up a 3 gallon quarantine tank for my betta this week and will do what you recommended by treating the smaller tank separately and leaving my two frogs in the 15 gallon tank. The treatment I purchased is called Super Ich Cure (I can attach pictures if helpful)
To clarify what you recommended, I remove the betta from my 15G tank, put in a 3G quarantine tank and treat that QT for a week (frequent water changes and increasing water temp to 30C (86F). Once a week has passed, if my betta has survived it is assumed the tank and fish are ICH free and I can lower the temperature. I should wait to add him back to my 15G tank with my frogs for 30+ days to ensure the 15G tank has eliminated all remaining ICH. Hopefully I gathered the gist of that.

I would like at some point to purchase more neon tetras, and maybe a kuhli loach or sucker mouth cat fish. I don't know if my tank is big enough for all that, or if they would make the best tank mates with a betta. From the research I have done they should get along ok, however the internet has a lot of conflicting information. I would appreciate any advice.

I will try to track down the article I read about stressed induced ich, I have read through a lot of articles trying to find what to do.
I will go off of your advise, thank you!!
__________________
candre39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2021, 06:53 PM   #5
Aquarium Advice Addict
Community Moderator
 
Aiken Drum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 2,345
Quote:
Originally Posted by candre39 View Post
The water test I took this morning showed the following:
Alkalinity /carbonate hardness (KH) is at 150-200
PH is at 6.8
Chlorine is at 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5-10
General hardness is at 0-50
My test strips must be limited because I do not see an ammonia reading.
Test strips dont include ammonia, probably for some technical reason. Ammonia is the most likely thing to be elevated in a new tank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by candre39 View Post
I am unware of the nitrogen cycle for a new tank
The nitrogen cycle is the process whereby harmful fish waste (ammonia) is converted to less harmful nitrate. Bacteria that mostly live in your filter consume ammonia and turn it into nitrite which is pretty much as harmful as ammonia. A different type of bacteria converts nitrite into much, much less harmful nitrate. Nitrate is typically removed through your water changes.

Cycling a tank is the process of growing enough bacteria in your filter to consume all the ammonia and resultant nitrite into nitrate. This process usually takes a couple of months and involves regular water changes to manage water quality until your cycle establishes. In the early stages of a tank cycling, if you arent keeping up with water changes, your ammonia gets elevated, often to lethal levels. Later in the cycle nitrites appear and these too can get elevated to lethal levels. Eventually you develop enough bacteria to consume the ammonia and nitrite quicker than your tank produces them and you are said to be cycled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by candre39 View Post
The treatment I purchased is called Super Ich Cure (I can attach pictures if helpful
The API product? Not a product ive used personally, but API are a good brand and that product has good reviews.

Quote:
Originally Posted by candre39 View Post
I would like at some point to purchase more neon tetras, and maybe a kuhli loach or sucker mouth cat fish. I don't know if my tank is big enough for all that
Lets sort out the ich issue first, and get your 15g cycled before adding any new fish.

Change 25% of the water daily for the next week on both your main tank and QT. If you are medicating make sure you top up the medication to cover the new water. Let us know how you are getting on and ill cover how to cycle a tank once the week is up. Try and get something to test for ammonia. I would recommend APIs freshwater master test kit and stop using the strips.

One more thing, dont just move the betta from you main tank to the new QT at 30c. Big (50%) water change on the main tank first. Temperature match the QT to the main tank. Move the fish. Raise the temp of the QT slowly over a 24 hour period.
__________________
Aiken Drum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 05:09 PM   #6
Aquarium Advice Newbie
 
candre39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 8
So far my beta has shown a lot of improvement being moved to the quarantine tank and being treated. Thank you so much for your advice. I will keep you updated on how things progress. I have also ordered a master testing kit that you recommended. And will be testing the water more accurately once it arrives.
I also had another question. The filter pump I use in my 15 gallon tank is a quiet flow aquarium filter pump. It has a main filter which is a rigid filter with a activated carbon pocket in the middle. It is rigid around the edges as well as through the center. The main pump also has a secondary smaller sponge like filter at the base where the water flows out. My question is this, my indicator light indicated that I need to change the filter. However based on our discussion I need to build up good bacteria in my filter, so what I did was siphon out some of the aquarium water and rinsed the filter best I could in that water and replaced the filter (tossing the old water). I'm wondering what I should do when the filter has to be replaced in the future (because I'm sure I can only do that a few times before the filter is useless). I thought I could maybe cut it in half and replace half the filter, however with it having a rigid base and center I doubt I'll be able to cut that in half because it would release the activated carbon. I'm wondering if I leave this smaller filter sponge at the base of the filter and wait to change the smaller filter until my main filter builds up bacteria again and just alternate which one I change? I'm worried the smaller sponge at the base of the filter won't hold enough bacteria to help my tank. I hope that all made sense, I appreciate any input you may have.
__________________
candre39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 05:25 PM   #7
Aquarium Advice Addict
Community Moderator
 
Aiken Drum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 2,345
You are absolutely right about not throwing out the filter cartridge, and rinsing it in tank water is the right thing to do.

Aqueon make different types of filter that are called quietflow. Is it the type that hangs on the back of the tank (generally called a hang on back or hob) or the type thats goes in the water (generally called an internal filter). What i would suggest is do away with the cartridge, get a media bag and fill it with some filter media like fluval biomax or seachem matrix and stuff the filled bag in the space the cartridge fitted. This will last years and years without needing replacing and just needs a periodic rinse as you did with your cartridge. The sponge should last a few years as well with just a periodic rinsing.

Does that make sense?
__________________
Aiken Drum
Community Moderator
Aiken Drum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 05:37 PM   #8
Aquarium Advice Newbie
 
candre39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 8
Yes that makes perfect sense. I will go ahead and change that out. Will it be harmful to my two dwarf frogs that are currently in my 15 gallon tank to switch that out if I leave the smaller sponge at the base of the filter pump that has also been building up bacteria? The pump that I have hangs off of the back of the aquarium. It has a suction that goes about 8" deep into the water that siphons the water up through the filter, and then back into the tank. Would you recommend that I also add some activated carbon to the media bag? Or possibly a separate media bag filled with activated carbon?
__________________
candre39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2021, 05:49 PM   #9
Aquarium Advice Addict
Community Moderator
 
Aiken Drum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 2,345
Yes. Leave the sponge in there as that will have some beneficial bacteria in it and will help to seed the new media.

I know this isnt your filter, but i think its similar and demonstrates what im on about.

https://youtu.be/Yiv_HNghkn0

You will risk losing at least some of your cycle by replacing the cartrdidge, but you are monitoring water and doing water changes anyway. Your target should be to do water changes to keep ammonia + nitrite combined below 0.5ppm. When your cycle re-establishes they should stay at 0ppm without your intervention.
__________________
Aiken Drum
Community Moderator
Aiken Drum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2021, 05:45 PM   #10
Aquarium Advice Newbie
 
candre39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 8
Thank you, that video was very helpful. I have now replaced my filter cartridge to a biomax/media bag filter to my main 15 gallon tank (with my two dwarf frogs) I will continue to frequently check the water and change 25% of the water.
My two African Dwarf Frogs seem to have mated (I thought they were fighting, but from research they were mating). My female looks like she is going to lay eggs any time now. I haven't the first clue what to do once she lays her eggs. I would appreciate any advice on the matter.
Also my betta fish was doing great in the quarantine tank for about 9 days, but then he got very sick again (same side effects, severe clamped fins, hiding, flashing around). I restarted his ich treatment and raised the temperature a few days ago and have been doing daily 25-35% water changes (retreating new water with ich treatment). He seems to be doing a bit better now, fins started to unclamp and he's not hiding as much. I just want to know what I could have done wrong, or what I could do better to help him get well, and not get sick again.
__________________
candre39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
tan

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New tank, need assistance Rixhephtos Freshwater & Brackish - Getting Started 7 05-01-2020 10:35 PM
New Tank, New hobby. Need assistance!!! Kodablue21 Freshwater & Brackish - Getting Started 2 09-27-2019 05:37 PM
Hi, I'm new here and need assistance MargieB Member Introductions 3 08-23-2010 02:53 AM
New Tank Setup. Need assistance. Aceshigh Saltwater & Reef - Getting Started 3 05-11-2004 05:58 PM
Need some assistance with a snail tank!! lawdawg18 Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 9 10-21-2003 08:54 PM







» Photo Contest Winners







All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.