Saltwater & Reef

davidstephen · 06-07-2010, 11:11 PM

Just signed up to the forum, and I need your help.

I've had a fresh water setup for the last four years and know the basics. I recently purchased a six inch electric blue Jack Dempsey two months ago. It took him about three weeks to adjust to the new environment. Starting off he would only eat flakes of food(aquadine) that floated into his hiding area, and eventually from my hand. The last day and a half, no eating at all. I tried blood worms, beef heart and he will not eat anything. I purchased ten feeder minos and nothing? My water is near perfect. I really need some help, I don't want him to die.

Thank you,
David

video -

jsoong · 06-07-2010, 11:17 PM

Welcome to AA!

I don't know anything about Jacks ... but I have changed to title to attract the attention of the experts.

logansmomma1228 · 06-07-2010, 11:20 PM

I would suggest checking out the cichlid part of this forum, welcome to AA, good luck and I am sure you will get plenty of help!

davidstephen · 06-07-2010, 11:30 PM

Thank you both.

Here is a video of him when he was healthy if anyone cares to view.

YouTube - New Family member

ChileRelleno · 06-08-2010, 01:19 AM

The usual gamut of questions...

Tank size
Water parameters, NH3(ammonia) NO2(nitrite) NO3(nitrate) PH, temp (need actual test results)
Filtration
Established tank
New tank-mates/decor
Prior/recent history of illness disease
Current illness/disease symptoms/duration
Size/age of fish
Tank-mates
Symptoms
(besides not eating), e.g. Stringy, white or clear, floating, feces, emaciated, swelling...etc etc.

davidstephen · 06-08-2010, 01:41 AM

Tank size - {30}
Water parameters, NH3(ammonia) {? need to get that test kit}
NO2(nitrite) {0}
NO3(nitrate) {20}
PH {7.2}
Temp {78F}
Filtration {Fluval 304}
Established tank {yes?}
New tank-mates/decor {no}
Prior/recent history of illness disease {no}
Current illness/disease symptoms/duration {not that i know of}
Size/age of fish {6 inches, 1.5 years}
Tank-mates {10 feeder minnows, 5 inch Plecostomus)
Symptoms {not eating}
(besides not eating), e.g. Stringy {no}, white or clear {no}, floating {no}, feces {not for a day}, emaciated {no}, swelling {no}

He kind of tweaks out after trying the aquadine, or thrashes his head.
__________________

ChileRelleno · 06-08-2010, 07:46 AM

Feeder minnows, have you fed'im unquarantined feeders before?
Sounds like the current ones were not quarantined?
VERY easy to introduce parasites/pathogens into your tank doing this, if you did.

My canned reply on Feeder Fish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChileRelleno

Outside of feeding true piscivores, feeder fish if fed are a treat/dessert, perhaps a couple of feeders per week.

Please, do not feed Goldfish or Rosy Reds, they are high in fats* and thiaminase**, neither of which are good for your predatory fish.

Feed common tropicals, e.g. Guppies, Platies, Tetras and etc.
These are inexpensive and not usually kept in the same abhorrent conditions as the more common feeders.
These still need to be thoroughly quarantined*** and treated proactively for common diseases/parasites.

You can also raise your own feeder fish.
Many tropical livebearers are very prolific and if your willing to maintain the extra tanks then culled fry/juveniles make excellent feeders.

Raising your own feeders is a lot of work, but if you already have a healthy well established Guppy tank or a pair of Convicts then maintaining a growout tank is fairly easy.

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PRO

Feeder fish when properly quarantined/raised and conditioned prior to feeding are a healthy, nutrition packed meal.
Disregard the oft espoused nonsense that feeder fish have little or no nutritional value.

Some keepers think that the feeding of feeder fish is good for the instinct/psyche of the predatory fish, that exercising their natural instincts makes them healthier/happier fish.
In some ways I'm inclined to agree...
The larger the habitat, the more closely the habitat/water chemistry mimic natural ideal conditions and the better their dietary needs are met, the fish often grows faster/larger, display better coloration/patterning, more inclined to breed and so on.

Let's face it, many of us enjoy watching our predatory fish eat feeder fish/live foods and there is nothing wrong with'it as long as the foods are not fed purely for a sadistic pleasure.

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CON

Why feed feeder fish at all?

Your fish may not want to chase feeders, can't blame'im, why work when pellets come from the hand of God.
Your fish may initially try and give up, happens alot, then you have feeders living with your O.
Your fish could injure itself trying to chase feeders.
Your fish could die from a disease or parasite.
Your fish may decide to eat nothing but feeders, then you'd have to start all over again breaking'im to pellets.

Why all the bother, just to see'em eat another fish?
Why all the bother for something you might ideally feed once a week, one or two feeders... Or even less.

Let the feeders stay at the LFS and die en masse there.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............
I have and very likely will again feed feeder fish to my predatory fish, but my mainstay for live foods are and always will be, nightcrawlers, crickets and mealworms.
I recommend alternative live foods that pose much less risk of illness/infestation, e.g. crayfish, shrimp, worms of all types, crickets, meal-worms and etc.
Nice thing is that other than washing or gut loading these live foods no other precautions are really necessary.
Also, these are usually easier to obtain, transport and maintain.
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*Fats
Cold-water fish are higher in fats and a steady diet of these can result in 'Fatty Liver Disease'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFK article

Although not a actual disease, fatty liver is a serious condition in which the liver becomes enlarged, often to the point that it interferes with, or even crushes, the other internal organs and is apparently the cause of death. This condition seems most commonly to be the result of poor diet, and the consensus of several well-known fish pathologists is that the single most common cause of fatty liver disease is a diet high in saturated fats, although biotin and/or choline deficiencies, toxemia and "unknown nonspecific causes" are also possible factors.

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**Thiaminase
http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/tox ... inase.html

Quote:

Thiaminases are enzymes found in a few plants and the raw flesh and viscera of certain fish and shellfish. When ingested these enzymes split thiamin (Vitamin B1), an important compound in energy metabolism, and render it inactive.

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***Quarantine
A good quarantine consist of observation and proactive treatment lasting at least two weeks, prefer a month or even longer.

1)Observe prospective feeders at the LFS very closely, appearance, swimming, respiration, feeding and etc...
Any dead/unhealthy fish in the tank or adjacent tank(s), don't buy any.

2)Before introducing to QT, give'em a strong salt dip/bath, this will force many external parasites to drop off the host.

3)QT should be kept at 87'-88'F and salted at at least 1tblspn per 5gal, this will eradicate any ICH and some parasites.

4)Feed at least one week with antibacterial food and then at least one week with anti-parasite/protozoan food.

5)During this time observe closely for anything indicative of illness/infestation, treat accordingly with meds or just cull.

A proper QT is alot of work.
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ChileRelleno · 06-08-2010, 07:59 AM

For now, I suggest getting rid of the feeders, not offering any food for a few days/week and buying a quality cichlid pellet/stick.
In a few days/week, offer 2-5 pellets at a time.
It is not unusual for cichlids to refuse to eat what they do not like, they will eat when they get hungry. A healthy adult can go week(s) without eating.
It especially common for cichlids who've been fed live foods, to refuse prepared foods.
It then becomes a battle of wills... They will eat when they get hungry enough.
They will not starve themselves to death.

During this time...
Observe for any feces, note color, consistency and whether they float or not.
Observe for more symptoms... Any changes in appearance/behaviour.

davidstephen · 06-13-2010, 09:00 PM

Well, after a little over a week with out eating, and immediately removing the feeder fish. He still will not eat the Aqua Dine, but loves blood worms. His appetite is back on track. Thank you for all your help.

Cheers,
David

ChileRelleno · 06-13-2010, 09:14 PM

He needs to be eating a mainstay, of quality cichlid pellets.

The following is geared primarily towards Oscars, but goes for pretty much any omnivorous cichlid species. O = Oscar

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChileRelleno

DIET
A quality cichlid pellet or stick should make up 75-80% of your O's diet.
These are my primary foods...
Pellets, Carnivore sticks, freezedried krill, algae wafers, fresh nightcrawlers, fresh/freezedried earthworm (Any worms are great foods!), fresh crickets, fresh mealworms, almost any insect I catch (Insects from outside do pose a risk of insecticides which can harm your fish, be careful.).

I rotate store bought nightcrawlers, crickets and mealworms about monthly on the menu.
I feed my 10"+ O probably 4-6 large crickets, 6-10 mealworms or 1-2 large nightcrawlers per feeding and he'll get'em every 2-3 days.

I feed or have fed my O all of these foods...
Raw/cooked shrimp, small bits of raw cut fish, beefheart, bitesize bits of fruits-n-veggies (zucchini, carrot, shelled peas, shelled corn, apple, orange, pear, papya and etc...), small tree/grass frogs (NO toads, and know which frog species your feeding as some can be toxic too.) and properly quarantined or raised feeder fish, these should be fed sparingly and rotated as snacks or dessert.
Do not feed unquarantined feeder fish from LFS/LPS, do not feed mammalian flesh (Animal fats from mammals and fowl are very bad for most fish).

I supplement his nutrition by soaking his pellets 4-5 times a week in a liquid vitamin.
I use Vita-Chem, available at some LFS's and on-line retailers, I get mine at BigAl's, http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ct ... shwater4oz
Alot of different types and brands are used, Liquid Centrum for example, but you could reasonably use any quality L. vitamin.

davidstephen · 06-13-2010, 09:28 PM

Can you recommend a specific brand of cichlid pellets?

Thank you.

ChileRelleno · 06-13-2010, 09:50 PM

Hikari brand 'Staple', 'Gold' or 'Bio-Gold' cichlid pellets.
New Life Spectrum, makes great feeds for all types of fish, has specific formulas for various species.
Omega One, makes a great flake for African cichlids and smaller cichlid species.

Currently I'm feeding a mix of Hikari Staple & Gold, Hikari Alagae wafers, NLS's Jumbo Fish Formula, Reptomin's Turtle sticks and Zoo Med aquatic Turtle food.
I keep it mixed in a large container, grab and toss, instant random/varied diet.

Yes, turtles feeds, lots of vegetable matter.
My Sev targets these feeds and only occasionally picks of a cichlid pellet.
My Oscar gobbles it all, and gets the necessary varied diet he needs.

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