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Old 03-10-2023, 01:48 PM   #21
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Aiken, I’m having the same thought, it may not be ich, given this flaking off of whatever. This makes me more concerned about adding the med. If it’s not ich & something is flaking off, could the med be harmful? Would the higher temp be safer?

The youngest of the group is not looking well. I thought he was dead, but he swam off when I tried to remove it.

If it’s not ich what are other possibilities?

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Old 03-10-2023, 01:54 PM   #22
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Andy, most of the pics at that link were banned or X’d out.
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Old 03-10-2023, 02:05 PM   #23
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Thanks, Andy, I’ll compare ich to velvet more closely, but from what little I’ve seen this looks more like ich. The stressor was probably moving them from a tank in the kitchen to one in another room where there’s more activity. But I really don’t know if more activity from people and dogs would bother them.

Edit#1: This matches ich more than velvet per photos and symptoms, especially for velvet symptoms. I’m not seeing any associated behavior. The spots are gone now from their bodies and limited to finnage, particularly the pectorals. Is this the typical course of ich? Would IchX be harmful if this isn’t ich?

Edit#2: Treated with IchX, per container directions. Some sevs have labored breathing & I’ve added an air stone. Maintaining temp ~80F. Bucket Boy, the youngest one who appeared dead, is perking up. He’s the only one of the group I’ve named. The guy who sold him to me for $10 said he was huge and needed a 5 gallon bucket for transport. He was a nurse who lived in the boondocks and delivered him to my house on his way to the hospital. I was shocked to see this tiny then 3” guy in the bucket. He’s an Orange Shouldered Sev, not much to look at now, but will be a beauty if he makes it. Fingers crossed.

Thanks Aiken, Colin, Andy and others for your help.
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Old 03-10-2023, 05:58 PM   #24
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Thanks, Andy, I’ll compare ich to velvet more closely, but from what little I’ve seen this looks more like ich. The stressor was probably moving them from a tank in the kitchen to one in another room where there’s more activity. But I really don’t know if more activity from people and dogs would bother them.

Edit#1: This matches ich more than velvet per photos and symptoms, especially for velvet symptoms. I’m not seeing any associated behavior. The spots are gone now from their bodies and limited to finnage, particularly the pectorals. Is this the typical course of ich? Would IchX be harmful if this isn’t ich?

Edit#2: Treated with IchX, per container directions. Some sevs have labored breathing & I’ve added an air stone. Maintaining temp ~80F. Bucket Boy, the youngest one who appeared dead, is perking up. He’s the only one of the group I’ve named. The guy who sold him to me for $10 said he was huge and needed a 5 gallon bucket for transport. He was a nurse who lived in the boondocks and delivered him to my house on his way to the hospital. I was shocked to see this tiny then 3” guy in the bucket. He’s an Orange Shouldered Sev, not much to look at now, but will be a beauty if he makes it. Fingers crossed.

Thanks Aiken, Colin, Andy and others for your help.
There are actually 2 forms of oodinium that affect freshwater fish. OŲdinium limneticum and OŲdinium pillularis. One is more yellow and the other more whitish. So the timing of it all can help make a better diagnosis. Oodinium infestations are rapid while Ick tends to be slower.
With that all said, you mentioned in a previous post that is seemed to happen overnight which would make me lean towards oodinium over Ick HOWEVER, if it really wasn't that quick because you haven't been watching the fish as closely, it could be either.
The spots coming and going is typical of both as they both have an on the fish and off the fish stages and the time to treat them is while they are off the fish. The Malachite Green won't hurt in either case but if it's oodinium, it won't help. Copper is the best and fastest remedy for Oodinium. As I mentioned before, if you are unsure, I'd use the coppersafe since it will treat both while the malachite green won't. It's just a more expensive route to take.

On a side note: one of the "problems" with having multiple tanks is that we often don't have the time to really sit and watch the tank. One of the best diagnostic tools is observation. The difference between looking at a fish tank and watching a fish tank is when you look at a fish tank, you see things quickly while when you watch a fish tank, you do so for a longer period of time and you are observing behaviors, interactions between tankmates, water flows, aeration, etc. since things don't necessarily happen all the time or at a certain moment.

I can not stress enough the importance of proper diagnosis which is why I have been recommending this book ( https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Fish.../dp/0866227032 ) since it came out in the 80s. It has one of the best diagnostic flow through chart that uses behavior, location of disease, appearance , etc when making a diagnosis. I use the amazon link only because it's shorter but you can find this book at a number of online sites like Ebay, Abe books or Goodreads at cheaper prices. Not all the medications it recommends are still available but the diagnostic charts alone are worth the price of the book.
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Old 03-10-2023, 06:15 PM   #25
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I can not stress enough the importance of proper diagnosis which is why I have been recommending this book ( https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Fish.../dp/0866227032 ) since it came out in the 80s. It has one of the best diagnostic flow through chart that uses behavior, location of disease, appearance , etc when making a diagnosis. I use the amazon link only because it's shorter but you can find this book at a number of online sites like Ebay, Abe books or Goodreads at cheaper prices. Not all the medications it recommends are still available but the diagnostic charts alone are worth the price of the book.
While i couldnt recommended anyone downloading books without paying for them. This book can easily be found as a downloadable .PDF. I will certainly be reading this, once my purchase has been delivered. Ahem. Ahem.
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Old 03-10-2023, 06:53 PM   #26
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Sorry, Aiken, your copy was mistakingly delivered to my iPad and I’m keeping it. Better luck next time.

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Old 03-10-2023, 07:59 PM   #27
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Andy, you got it wrong, man. I do believe I observe my tanks far more closely than most. I have 8 tanks in the room where I spend hours & hours when the stock market is open, trading & riding my stationary bike. When Wall Streetís closed, I ride and read on this iPad and generally annoy people online. The sick sevs are next to the bike. I feed all these fish 2X a day. But all I can say is if they were infected prior to this AM, it would have been barely detectable.

Iím still sticking with ick, but how and when would I know if the DX is correct? Iím letting the temp drop to their usual ~75F. Is that ok? If the copper treatment targets both protozoans, could I switch meds? Can this be done quickly?
In either case, dropping the temp is a bad move. It should be in the low to mid 80s for the entire treatment time.

Don't take offense but if you were observant, you would KNOW if it happened overnight. ( the first effected fish would have been scratching or flicking a fin or trying in some way to get rid of it. )

You should see a drastic reduction in Ick spots in 24 -48 hours using malachite green. If there is no reduction in this timeframe, you would need to do a water change and use either a carbon product or something like a Polyfilter pad that removes chemicals from the water for at least 24 hours before switching to copper. If you do see a reduction in spots, follow the directions on the product as for repeat treatments. ( I have not used this product so I don't know the correct protocol. )

Lastly, get the book. With it, you would have known not to drop the temp. I suggest the actual book version since it never has to worry about crashes or computer viruses. ( Sorry Aiken )
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Old 03-10-2023, 08:04 PM   #28
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I have a 3/4” hose & PVC setup for water changes. It was used Saturday, a week ago, for the 8 tanks in a room that includes the currently infected sev tank. It was used this past Monday on two 125 tanks in another room. Would any protozoans in this system be dead by now due to lack of a host fish? I usually do water changes on these ten tanks Sat. & Sun.
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Old 03-10-2023, 08:13 PM   #29
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I have a 3/4Ē hose & PVC setup for water changes. It was used Saturday, a week ago, for the 8 tanks in a room that includes the currently infected sev tank. It was used this past Monday on two 125 tanks in another room. Would any protozoans in this system be dead by now due to lack of a host fish? I usually do water changes on these ten tanks Sat. & Sun.
Theoretically, it should be safe but I would use a bleach solution or a strong salt solution through the hose before using it again. Also, you should be sanitizing the hose between each use in a different tank. This will keep any issues from spreading from one tank to another. I would also look really close at whichever tank(s) you used the hose in after the severum tank.
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Old 03-10-2023, 08:28 PM   #30
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Andy, most of the pics at that link were banned or Xíd out.
OOOps, I missed this one. Yeah, but if you continued to scroll down, there was one with multiple pictures of different diseases on fish which included Ick and Oodinium.
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Old 03-10-2023, 08:44 PM   #31
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https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/10-2-4-epistylis/
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Old 03-10-2023, 08:56 PM   #32
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Wow, m.j.Gomez, I have my homework cut out for me tomorrow. Thanks. I was wondering if there’s option #3, but too inexperienced to know where to begin.

PS: still on the hunt for a pair of golden dojos like yours. I love my 2 brown ones; their activity level is amazing. They live in a 125 G with ten goldfish.
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Old 03-10-2023, 11:07 PM   #33
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It is not epistylis.

The white stuff coming off the fish in the latest pictures is excess mucous caused by either poor water quality, chemicals, or a severe external protozoan infection (white spot or Oodinium). If the water quality is good and you hadn't added the medication before you took the pictures, then it's caused by the parasites.

Don't raise the temperature above 80F and use chemicals. The fish are under severe stress right now and will probably die if you raise the temperature further and use chemicals.

In my experience, Malachite Green treats velvet and white spot. Andy may have different experiences to me. Copper will also treat both, but as mentioned, it is more dangerous and if you overdose with either medication, you will kill the fish.


Did you work out how much water is in the tank?

--------------------

White spot and velvet (Oodinium) parasites have several stages to their lifecycle.
1) The white dots on the fish. The parasite is attached to the fish and is drinking the fish's blood. It is growing inside the white shell and building up energy reserves. The parasite has a protective coating over it (the white shell) and it cannot be killed at this stage. It will remain on the fish for several days before dropping off. The time it remains on the fish is determined by the temperature. Warmer water speeds up the lifecycle and they drop off sooner, multiply faster and spread faster.

2) The parasites fall off the fish after a few days and sit on the bottom of the tank. The parasite is now on the bottom of the tank and is dividing/ multiplying inside the white cyst. It spends several days multiplying inside the cyst before the cyst ruptures open and releases a new batch of parasites. The parasite cannot be killed at this stage (while it is in the white cysts multiplying).

When the parasites fall off the fish, they leave a small scar behind. If the scar is on the gills, this can hinder the fish's ability to take in oxygen (O2) and release carbon dioxide (CO2). Lots of scars on the gills can cause the fish to suffocate and die. This is one of the reasons why you need increase aeration when treating fish. To maximise oxygen levels in the water so the fish are less likely to suffocate. It's like getting an oxygen mask when you go to hospital, it increases your O2 level.

3) The white cysts split open and release about 50-100 new parasites that swim around the water looking for a new host fish. The new parasites can live for about 48 hours without a host and then they die. This free swimming stage is the only time the parasite can be killed. While the parasite is swimming around in the water, and before it has attached to a fish, the medication should kill the parasites. This is why you need to treat them for about one week after the spots have all gone, so you kill the free swimming parasites before they can attach themselves to a fish and start the cycle over.

--------------------

If you had fish in the tank with a minor white spot infection, you might not have seen any of the spots because the parasites regularly attach themselves to the gills first. After a week, the few parasites on the fish's gills will have dropped off, divided and hatched, and spread throughout the aquarium, infecting everything in there.

If you had contaminated fish in the tank for a day or two, this might have been sufficient time for them to shed a couple of the white spots from their body or gills. These would have sat in the gravel or possibly got drawn into the filter where they continued to develop even after you did a big water change and gravel clean.

--------------------

If the gravel cleaner and hose were left to dry for a week between uses, there shouldn't be any external protozoan parasites alive in it. Even if there is a small amount of water left in the hose, one week without a host should kill any protozoa in there.

I used to flush my hoses out before and after using them to remove most of the microscopic organisms that might have attached to the inside of the hose while it was being used.

After use, the water was drained out of the hoses and they were rolled up and left until the following week.

Gravel cleaners were rinsed under tap water and were hung up and left to dry.
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Old 03-10-2023, 11:42 PM   #34
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The only time I found Malachite green to be effective against Velvet ( OŲdinium pilularis ) is when it's mixed with formalin ( as in the product Quick Cure which is no longer available. ) The problem is that there are 2 forms of freshwater oodinium and malachite green rates 4th on the top medicines for treating oodinium. #1 is Copper ( best and fastest cure), #2 is Quinine sulfate and Q HCL ( a difficult med to find ), #3 is Acriflavine (which has also become hard to find ) #4 is Malachite green with Formalin ( which has been discontinued in the U.S. due to formaldehyde concerns. ) Kordon is the only product line that I know of that is promoting straight M Green for oodinium. I would find it suspect. It definitely works on Ich tho.
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Old 03-11-2023, 01:31 AM   #35
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I should have put Malachite Green or Copper based medications. Point taken. The medications we used to get here contained Malachite Green, Formaldehyde and usually something else, quite often Methylene Blue. We never got pure/ straight Malachite Green, it was always mixed with other things.

I don't know what chemicals are available today, haven't been outside in years.
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Old 03-11-2023, 02:22 AM   #36
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IchX does indeed contain the 3 chemicals you mention, Colin.
The water quality was good. The tank was drained & vacuumed before the sevs were transferred to it < a week ago & the params taken daily with API. Everything you say makes sense to me, thank you. And is consistent with what I’m reading.

Some say the ich protozoan is ever present in most tanks & ponds & only becomes problematic with poor water quality & stressed fish. Do you think this is true?

I did not calculate water volume. All my tanks were sold as 55, 75, 90, 110, 125 gallons etc & I trust the manufacturers to get it right. The IchX instructions were 5 ml per 10 g.
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Old 03-11-2023, 04:58 AM   #37
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https://www.bassleer.com/ornamentalf...-_-05-2012.pdf

I’m still sticking with ick, but this is interesting
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Old 03-11-2023, 06:37 AM   #38
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Some say the ich protozoan is ever present in most tanks & ponds & only becomes problematic with poor water quality & stressed fish. Do you think this is true?
No, that is rubbish. White spot and velvet have to be introduced into an aquarium. They can do this on fish, plants or in contaminated water or objects. You might only get one individual parasite/ pathogen in the water and it can take weeks or even months to build up in numbers. Sometimes if the tank is cleaned regularly (with big water changes and gravel cleans), the disease organisms never get a chance to build up in sufficient numbers to infect the fish on a large scale and show symptoms. Then you can have a low grade infection in the tank that doesn't really affect the fish and never shows itself except for an occasional flash/ rub on an object in the tank. And fish can and do get the odd itch so most people don't think anything of it if it only happens once. Most people also don't watch their fish 24/7 so a fish can rub on objects when people aren't around.

I had a tank with a group of young rainbowfish in. The tank had been established for years, had plants and got regular maintenance. It had never had white spot in it before. The water was perfect and the fish weren't stressed, but they were dying slowly one every few days. I couldn't see any diseases and they weren't showing symptoms. I took one to Fish Health at the Department of Agriculture. They necropsied the fish and said it had white spot and gill flukes. I treated the fish with salt and copper and got rid of the white spot and flukes. But none of those fish were stressed or showed spots on their bodies. They had the problem for months and it was kept in check because I was doing huge water changes and gravel cleans, which diluted the number of parasites in the water. It turned out the fish came from over east and the supplier had apparently treated them for white spot before sending them over to WA. They obviously still had a parasite on them when shipped and it built up in numbers in my tank and started killing the fish.

If fish are stressed, they are usually stressed by poor water quality, a dirty tank or filter, or from being bullied or kept in unnatural numbers or in the wrong water chemistry. These will all weaken a fish's immune system and allow disease organisms easier access to the fish, and the dirty conditions will encourage harmful pathogens to build up in numbers. This is one of the reasons I tell people to do a huge water change and gravel clean every week, to dilute disease organisms in the tank.

Diseases caused by stress and poor water quality are usually external protozoan parasites like Costia, Chilodonella & Trichodina. These diseases are in most aquariums but don't normally cause problems unless the tank is dirty, doesn't get regular cleaning, and is overstocked or heavily fed (especially with meat foods).

Poor water quality (in particular water with ammonia in) can damage the tissue of fish and allow harmful bacteria and fungus into the wound. This can then spread and if left untreated, can kill the fish. Virtually all aquariums do have harmful and beneficial bacteria and fungus in them. It's introduced with the fish, plants and anything else you buy or get from an aquarium. A lot of bacteria also floats around in the air and can land in aquariums where it settles down and grows. A lot of harmful bacteria, fungus and protozoa can live in biofilm (the slime on the inside of the glass, ornaments & filter in the aquarium). If you wipe the glass down every week or two, and wipe or hose off ornaments regularly (at least once a month), you remove or reduce the biofilm and minimise the number of harmful pathogens in the aquarium.

There are some harmful bacteria that can only get into your aquarium via a sick fish or contaminated water. The most common one is Columnaris (aka mouth fungus). It's actually a flesh eating bacteria but starts out as a white mouth, hence the common name mouth fungus. I have never had this disease in my home tanks but we saw it in the shop regularly. It came in on sick fish (usually guppies) from the suppliers, who sent out sick fish when they shouldn't have. If you catch the disease in time, you can stop it with salt and medication (usually antibiotics or antibacterial medications like Formaldehyde and Methylene Blue). Neon Disease is another one that has to be introduced.

Stress does play a big role in fish health, but has nothing to do with white spot or velvet. You can have really healthy fish get white spot, and you can have fish in poor water quality and they don't get white spot. It has to be introduced into the aquarium.

---------------------

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I did not calculate water volume. All my tanks were sold as 55, 75, 90, 110, 125 gallons etc & I trust the manufacturers to get it right. The IchX instructions were 5 ml per 10 g.
Don't trust the manufacturers. 99% of aquariums don't hold as much water as what they are sold as. Some tanks might hold that amount if they are completely full to the brim, and when there is no gravel or ornaments in it, but most tanks hold less water than what they are sold as.

Gravel, rocks, driftwood, plants and even fish displace water. Most aquariums are filled to a couple of inches below the top. These all reduce the amount of water in the aquarium. External filters can add water volume to an aquarium.

You should always work out how much water is in a tank before treating.

When measuring large aquariums to work out water volume, you should measure from the inside of the glass because 1/2 inch thick glass can add an inch to the total length, width or height and add a few more incorrect gallons of water to a tank.

Try working out the volume on one of the tanks and see how close it is to the manufacturer's claims.
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Old 03-11-2023, 07:10 AM   #39
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Thanks yet again, Colin. I am most appreciative as always of your expertise & insights.

The sevs are a bit more active and looking a little better today.
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Old 03-11-2023, 07:49 AM   #40
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You'll find that most manufactured tanks do not hold the amount of water they are advertised at. When using the formula (l x w x h / 231), you'll find that even using outside measurements, they do not add up to the advertised amount. Take the inside dimensions to calculate water volume. In the future, when setting up a tank, take a known amount of water, say 5 gallons, and measure how that looks in the tank. If it's say, 1", you'll know that for every inch of water above the substrate, that's 5 gallons of water. Add your decor then measure how much displacement has taken place so you will know how much water to subtract from your total. (it won't be exact when you add in substrate but it will be close enough for calculating medications ). If you ever saw my tanks ( you can see some in my albums) you will see that every one of them are marked for water levels.
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