Is this ich?

[Andy Sager]

https://www.bassleer.com/ornamental...s/3/2016/12/INFOFISHFish-Health-_-05-2012.pdf

I’m still sticking with ick, but this is interesting

There are actually a number of parasites that look like ICK which is why proper diagnosis is so important as they don't all respond to the same medications.

 

[Andy Sager]

I should have put Malachite Green or Copper based medications. Point taken. The medications we used to get here contained Malachite Green, Formaldehyde and usually something else, quite often Methylene Blue. We never got pure/ straight Malachite Green, it was always mixed with other things.

I don't know what chemicals are available today, haven't been outside in years.

My earliest encounter with Velvet ( 50 some years ago) was when most of the Harlequin Rasboras in the trade were wild caught. My Mentor had gotten some to sell and they came down with velvet. There were no copper meds available in the trade so he used pennies ( which are made from copper) as treatment and cured the fish. It was this encounter that sparked my interest in medicines. Years later at a shop I was working in, we had a tank with velvet and Coppersafe was out of stock so I pulled the ol' "penny trick " and saved the tank. Needless to say, it was the talk of the store for while. It pays to have a certified ichthyologist as a mentor. They know stuff.

 

[Jacky12]

Would it be useful to remove the existing substrate in the sev tank? It is shallow & was recently added, no BB.

 

[Andy Sager]

Would it be useful to remove the existing substrate in the sev tank? It is shallow & was recently added, no BB.

That would leave the parasites no place to hide to metamorphis but the malachite green will be in the water within the substrate so still effecting the parasites in there killing them off. It's a personal choice. I find bare bottom tanks easier to see what needs to be cleaned. Only fish that dig really care about your substrate.


I should also add that removing the substrate would not automatically kill off the parasites. You would still need to be vacuuming the bottom, daily imo, to get rid of them.

 

[Jacky12]

The existing substrate, a 1” layer of sand topped by a little gravel, was a temporary fix using available materials when the tank was set up ~a week ago. The permanent plan is to use a mixture of white pool filter sand & black blasting sand. I do not care for the fineness of playground sand, although it’s a lot cheaper.

OMG! I was defrauded! A 55 gallon tank here has an interior volume of 50 g! Sacrilegious!

Edit#1: Would their reflection on bare bottom glass stress fish?

 

[Colin_T]

All aquariums should have some substrate to stop the fish seeing their reflection, and becoming disorientated. I have seen schools of tetras swimming upside down in bare quarantine tanks. I have seen other fish do similar things too. They need a substrate so they can work out up and down. And darker substrates are better than light ones, which reflect more light.

 

[Jacky12]

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, Colin. I partially removed some, but glass covered. I’ve heard of people using ceramic tile to cover the bottom.

 

[Andy Sager]

The existing substrate, a 1” layer of sand topped by a little gravel, was a temporary fix using available materials when the tank was set up ~a week ago. The permanent plan is to use a mixture of white pool filter sand & black blasting sand. I do not care for the fineness of playground sand, although it’s a lot cheaper.

OMG! I was defrauded! A 55 gallon tank here has an interior volume of 50 g! Sacrilegious!

Edit#1: Would their reflection on bare bottom glass stress fish?

I don't believe they see their actual reflection since they are looking straight through the glass just as you do. The thought is that they MAY see a shadow if they are looking at an angle and that may cause some fear in them. If they saw their actual reflection, schooling fish should love that because there would be more fish in the school so more protection therefore less stress.

I should also add that not all fish are freaked out by a bare bottom tank. All my cichlid breeders, including Angels, Severums and Oscars, with the exception of substrate spawners were done in bare bottom tanks so it wasn't bad enough to stop them from spawning.

And Yeah, the tank sizes vs actually tank capacity is a real shocker. :^s Considering that many medications are packaged in 10 gallon doses, using a 10 gallon tank would actually be doing an over dose of those meds. Better to use a 15 or 20 gallon tank with 10 actual gallons of water for medicating or use 5 actual gallons of water in a 10 gal tank and then cut the medication amount in half.

 

[Jacky12]

Watching videos on ich. First guy says to raise temp to 83F if fish can tolerate it, dose heavily with salt (he specified quantity & I can’t remember now) then use IchX per instructions.

This is the second vid by Cory at Aquarium Coop. I’ve seen him before & he appears credible. Sometimes he uses salt & other times not. He glosses over salt treatment & focuses on IchX. He uses IchX on all new arrivals. He said the origin of ich in a tank is controversial in that it can appear in established tanks where no new fish etc have been introduced. He said he’s seen it in tanks 6 months to 2 yrs old. He thinks big changes in params can trigger an infection. Some viewers in the comment section agree. Mostly he discussed the IchX instructions & had good graphics including photos of infected fish & diagrams of the life cycle.

I am confused. I fail to see how a pathogen that requires a host suddenly pops up & attacks the fish. His description of the disease progression matches my observations. This infection almost certainly began in the gills & I was not closely monitoring them except on the Blood Red Parrot fish with the deformed operculum.

My new koi angelfish were in the tank where the sick sevs are until I moved them to the 125 G pleco tank. I moved several fish around to free up this 125 for the big common plecos. The other fish in the infected tank, Silver Dollars, Long-Skirt Tetras & Pearl Gouramis were moved to yet another tank. All of the fish appear healthy, no visible signs of ich in either the group that were in the current sev tank or their new tank mates. They are under close observation.

My sevs are looking a tad better. Most body cysts are gone, but the pectorals are not looking good on some fish. I did a 1/3 water change & added less IchX than yesterday since the true volume was not as advertised. I’m going to watch more vids since I’m not raising the temp & adding salt, but am doing the med Most likely, I’ll continue this protocol at their usual 75F, not positive. But more info may redirect my path. I can’t get any decent pics because the tank LED is off & the ambient light is insufficient. Cory thinks dim lighting is important.

Edit #1: Added another air stone. One added yesterday. Source of oxygenation had been large sponge filter, so now they have 3 air pumps going. Fish are in respiratory distress, the young adults more so than the juvenile. This tank has a Tidal 110 HOB which also adds O2. Months ago, I called the manufacturer and they said it’s sufficient aeration for most tanks & the sole source in their office ones, but probably theirs are smaller than mine.

Edit #2: Ordered fish disease book Andy mentioned from Amazon. Sick & tired of dropping my iPad into the toilet. $15 hardback.

 

[Andy Sager]

You might want to read this: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/FA006

UF is where the Florida fish farmers use to get ACCURATE information since they are also a veterinarian school.

You could go crazy watching videos by non professionals and some with just limited professional experience. UF is training the professionals.

 

[Jacky12]

Great article!

 

[Andy Sager]

Great article, thanks.

I'm very careful on what sites I take information from. I rarely do any that end in .com.
Glad to read you got the book. Now you'll be able to ask "What do I use to treat X disease since Y medicine is no longer available?" instead of "what is this??? "

 

[Jacky12]

Two more books & I'll be as smart as you! Grasshopper will choose wisely, Sensai

 

[Andy Sager]

Two more books & I'll be as smart as you! Grasshopper will choose wisely, Sensai

2??

I lost more fish books to a leaking tank than most have ever owned. I learned my lesson well about keeping books away from tanks.

 

[Jacky12]

Sorry, I meant to say two million.

The fish disease book won’t arrive until late next week. $4 Xtra to get it shipped sooner & free if I am patient. I’m cheap & patient. Meanwhile, is it possible to say my sevs have ich based on most cysts gone? Or would the response be the same for another pathogen?

 

[Colin_T]

I don't believe they see their actual reflection since they are looking straight through the glass just as you do. The thought is that they MAY see a shadow if they are looking at an angle and that may cause some fear in them. If they saw their actual reflection, schooling fish should love that because there would be more fish in the school so more protection therefore less stress.

I should also add that not all fish are freaked out by a bare bottom tank. All my cichlid breeders, including Angels, Severums and Oscars, with the exception of substrate spawners were done in bare bottom tanks so it wasn't bad enough to stop them from spawning.

In Australia we have a sheet of polystyrene foam under our aquariums to reduce the chance of them cracking. This makes the base of the tank more reflective and fish can see their reflection. We can see our reflection in the bottom too if we look down on the tank. I have seen cichlids, rainbowfish and barbs displaying to their reflection on the bottom of bare glass tanks.

Whilst some fish do adapt to it, most fish appear happier and more comfortable in tanks with a substrate. Yes fish will live and breed in bare glass tanks, but should we force them to live that way? How would you like to live in a glass house and not know what glass is. You can feel something and can see through it, but you can't go through it even though there doesn't appear to be anything there. Fish don't naturally occur in glass bottom lakes or rivers without a substrate. In my opinion, all aquariums should have something covering the base, even if it's only a thin layer of sand. The only exception to this is a tank being used to treat fish with antibiotics, that should be free of substrate, wood and most ornaments, which reduces the medication's effectiveness.

 

[Jacky12]

With you all the way on all the above, Colin. I think the glass surface acts as a mirror and fish do react to their own image. Not much different from other animals. Plus it’s unnatural.

 

[Colin_T]

Watching videos on ich. First guy says to raise temp to 83F if fish can tolerate it, dose heavily with salt (he specified quantity & I can’t remember now) then use IchX per instructions.

This is the second vid by Cory at Aquarium Coop. I’ve seen him before & he appears credible. Sometimes he uses salt & other times not. He glosses over salt treatment & focuses on IchX. He uses IchX on all new arrivals. He said the origin of ich in a tank is controversial in that it can appear in established tanks where no new fish etc have been introduced. He said he’s seen it in tanks 6 months to 2 yrs old. He thinks big changes in params can trigger an infection. Some viewers in the comment section agree. Mostly he discussed the IchX instructions & had good graphics including photos of infected fish & diagrams of the life cycle.

Be careful about what you see in online videos, not all are accurate. The people doing the videos are often more interested in ratings than providing correct information. There are some good videos out there, but a lot of them aren't as good as they could be. A lot of people also specialise in one subject (maybe a reef tank) but know next to nothing about other fish related subjects. This is common in people keeping cichlids or plant tanks. Many claim to be experts and know a lot about their particular cichlids or plants, but very few know more than that.

Salt doesn't treat white spot but can be used to reduce the chance of secondary infections (as mentioned in the link from Andy). White spot parasites occur on fish in fresh, brackish and saltwater environments. If fish have white spot and are being treated with heat or chemical medications, they are already under stress and adding salt can increase the stress they are under. There's no need to compound the stress they are under by adding salt to a freshwater tank when it isn't going to make much, if any difference.

If you want to use salt, see below, but don't add it to a tank unless it is necessary because it can harm freshwater fishes, especially those that come from soft water habitats.

The white spot in your tank came from the fish that were recently introduced. A few parasites got into the tank and caused the outbreak. It happens to the best of us. It's happened to me and other people I know, and will keep happening because it is such a small parasite that can be easily overlooked until it builds up in numbers.

-----------------------

SALT
Using Salt to Treat Fish Health Issues.
For some fish diseases you can use salt (sodium chloride) to treat the ailment rather than using a chemical based medication. Salt is relatively safe and is regularly used in the aquaculture industry to treat food fish for diseases. Salt has been successfully used to treat minor fungal and bacterial infections, as well as a number of external protozoan infections. Salt alone will not treat whitespot (Ichthyophthirius) or Velvet (Oodinium) but will treat most other types of external protozoan infections in freshwater fishes. Salt can treat early stages of hole in the head disease caused by Hexamita but it needs to be done in conjunction with cleaning up the tank. Salt can also be used to treat anchor worm (Lernaea), fish lice (Argulus), gill flukes (Dactylogyrus), skin flukes (Gyrodactylus), Epistylis, Microsporidian and Spironucleus infections.

You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

 

[Andy Sager]

In Australia we have a sheet of polystyrene foam under our aquariums to reduce the chance of them cracking. This makes the base of the tank more reflective and fish can see their reflection. We can see our reflection in the bottom too if we look down on the tank. I have seen cichlids, rainbowfish and barbs displaying to their reflection on the bottom of bare glass tanks.

Whilst some fish do adapt to it, most fish appear happier and more comfortable in tanks with a substrate. Yes fish will live and breed in bare glass tanks, but should we force them to live that way? How would you like to live in a glass house and not know what glass is. You can feel something and can see through it, but you can't go through it even though there doesn't appear to be anything there. Fish don't naturally occur in glass bottom lakes or rivers without a substrate. In my opinion, all aquariums should have something covering the base, even if it's only a thin layer of sand. The only exception to this is a tank being used to treat fish with antibiotics, that should be free of substrate, wood and most ornaments, which reduces the medication's effectiveness.

You see a reflection because you are looking at an angle or Australia is using glass with a reflective sheen to it. My wife was the office manager for an Opthomolagy practice and one of the Drs was heavy into fish and diving ( he had more pictures of fish eyes from his dives than I have pictures of fish. LOL ) and he explained how the human eye and a fish's eye are very close to identical. We see distance more because we are looking through air while the fish don't see as far because they are looking through water. The big differences are the lack of a tear duct, eyelids and the round lens the fish have. So if they look straight through a pane of glass, they are seeing through the pane of glass and not at a reflection. Just like when you look into the tank from the front or sides, you see though the glass. Well, so does the fish. If you look down from the top of the tank, you will see the same thing as the fish are seeing. If your tanks had white styro under them, the fish were looking at white styro and that to them could be their substrate.

Ironically, today in another group I belong to, a question was asked about why so many people today do not use any form of backgrounds on their tanks. Most of the answers were that the people were just lazy but imo, a scenic background would do more for the fish than substrate would. I know I used a scenic background on my breeder Angelfish tanks and had 2 pairs use the glass in front of a tree stump in the picture to spawn on. Since I pull my spawns, I can't have them spawning on the glass so I placed breeding slates in front of the stump and wouldn't you know it, one pair went to the pic of a sword plant in another area of the background. It only proves that they do see out the glass.

As I said, I know smaller tank manufacturers might be using different glass on the bottoms than the big national manufacturers do. I have seen ( and had) a number of different bottoms on my tanks from our local manufacturer but if it's clear glass, they should not be seeing a reflection.

 

[Jacky12]

Thanks, Colin. I am unlikely to use salt, simply interested in options & multiple approaches to the same problem.

I’m hard pressed to accept the sevs carried the parasite to the infected tank. No signs of it in their original tank which is currently occupied by angelfish, plecos and 4 small synodontis angelicus. The pathogen had to be in the current sev tank, even though I removed all water & the substrate. A shop vac made cleaning what couldn’t be siphoned out easy. But I used one of the two original filters in the second tank, where the sick sevs are now. I didn’t sterilize the tank. I’m baffled and leaning towards the theory one of the angels purchased 1/29/23 had the protozoan, but that fish & others are asymptomatic. I bet Cory can explain everything to me in his next video, but he wants $50 & I only have 49. It’s a hard knock life.