Is this ich?

[Andy Sager]

I’m fascinated by the first paragraph in your post. Can you provide a credible reference?

Here’s one I found that seems to say the earlier life stage organisms croak if they can’t find a host within 48 hours.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/topic...logical-sciences/ichthyophthirius-multifiliis

Look at page 95 of the handbook. The "hatching" time frame is 6 -9 days. So if the ones that hatch in 6 days die by day 8, the ones that hatch in 9 days can still re-infest. That's for marine Crypt. Now look at page 94 for the hatch time frame and life cycle of freshwater Ick.

Over the course of 50 years I have a read a lot of books and had many chances for personal experiences that will challenge a lot of what is written online. There is an old book called " The marine aquarium in theory and practice." This is a technique book and not a fish book. It has few pictures but solid information of what it took to keep marine fish tanks with the known knowledge of the times. Over time, only the way things are done has changed, the basic requirements of fish keeping has remained. That's great for saltwater but what about freshwater? I was trained by a certified Ichthyologist who spent 12 years getting his degree ( unlike many of today's " experts" who stopped after their bachelor's degree that can be had in 5 years) and a lot of what he taught me is not in any books. It's too complex for the non professionals. This is why I refer people to UF or University of Miami ( where I had connections) because one is a veterinary school that deals with freshwater fish farmers while the other is a marine science school ( The rosenstiel school of marine, atmospheric and Earth science). This is where I get my most reliable information if I haven't experienced it myself. In the end, it's just as much who you know as it is what you know.

 

[Jacky12]

I can’t see how to get to p. 94. Can you tell me how or post a screen shot? TY

Edit#1 5:36 PM. I just tried to access the references Ruth Francis-Floyd used. Dang, they wanted like $35 for a chapter and $250 for the books, without institutional credentials. Last week I began looking into those credentials. My husband and I have advanced degrees from UCLA, MIT & Stanford. I can get alumni library cards from the ones I queried, but was too stressed by the impending death of my fish to carry through. No idea if this would grant free access to what I want, but certainly to each university’s collection. The circulation librarians didn’t know either.

Reread Ruth’s article and may email her again, but don’t want to take advantage of her kindness is replying to me the first time. She says fish cured of ich can remain “reservoirs” of the pathogen. Makes me wonder what good a pathogen free tank would be, if the same fish are returned to it. Ideally, I’d like to purify the tank and add more colorful active fish, but not at the risk of another outbreak among the old and new fish.

 

[Andy Sager]

I can’t see how to get to p. 94. Can you tell me how or post a screen shot? TY

Edit#1 5:36 PM. I just tried to access the references Ruth Francis-Floyd used. Dang, they wanted like $35 for a chapter and $250 for the books, without institutional credentials. Last week I began looking into those credentials. My husband and I have advanced degrees from UCLA, MIT & Stanford. I can get alumni library cards from the ones I queried, but was too stressed by the impending death of my fish to carry through. No idea if this would grant free access to what I want, but certainly to each university’s collection. The circulation librarians didn’t know either.

Reread Ruth’s article and may email her again, but don’t want to take advantage of her kindness is replying to me the first time. She says fish cured of ich can remain “reservoirs” of the pathogen. Makes me wonder what good a pathogen free tank would be, if the same fish are returned to it. Ideally, I’d like to purify the tank and add more colorful active fish, but not at the risk of another outbreak among the old and new fish.

I don't have any information on the online version of the book. I use the hardbound copy. There should be a page number if you are looking at a PDF. It's on page 94 and 95 of the actual book. ( PDF numbers don't always match book numbers but the book page shown is numbered so you should be able to go from there. )

This is why the "fallow tank" method has it's flaws for freshwater and works better in saltwater tanks. The parasites and their lifecycles are different. The best you can do to be 100% sure is bleach the tank with everything running, which will sterilize everything, reset it, cycle it again and never put a fish in it that hasn't been quarantined first. The quarantine period should be no less than 60 days. ( This last part is where people fail because they want the fish in the main tank fast so they put in sick or infected fish that are asymptomatic at the time. )

 

[Jacky12]

You mean the book Laboratory Animal Medicine, edited by Fox et al?

 

[Andy Sager]

You mean the book Laboratory Animal Medicine, edited by Fox et al?

No, I mean the Untergasser book ( Handbook of fish diseases.)

If you don't think that book is good enough for you, try this one: https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Fish+Disease:+Diagnosis+and+Treatment,+2nd+Edition-p-9780813806976
I have Wiley books for just marine diseases and they are very technical.

 

[Jacky12]

Ok. Think the article I referenced earlier was from the other book. I’ll take another look

 

[Jacky12]

I have the hardback of Untergasser’s book. It’s terrific. I would have known what to expect had I noticed the publisher, t.f.h. They do a slew of books for pet owners & I’ve had several over the years, all given away when I moved. Books like: Know Your Cockatoo, Know Your Boxer, Know Your Amazon Parrot and on and on.

 

[Andy Sager]

I have the hardback of Untergasser’s book. It’s terrific. I would have known what to expect had I noticed the publisher, t.f.h. They do a slew of books for pet owners & I’ve had several over the years, all given away when I moved. Books like: Know Your Cockatoo, Know Your Boxer, Know Your Amazon Parrot and on and on.

Actually, since the 90s(?), better books not from TFH have come on the market about animals and fish in general but for the time, they were the best things to have because of the people that were doing the writing. One of Axelrod's best moves was surrounding himself with people who were smarter about fish than he was. Don't get me wrong, he did a lot of exploring which is why there are a number of fish named after him or the people that helped him find them. I used to work for one of his companions on those trips. ( On a side note, ol' Herbie A used to be part of my Aunt's Wednesday night poker game. It's about who you know. )

 

[Jacky12]

I have quite the fish book collection. These are the fattest pair. I am unable to repeat the tales of Herbie and my great auntie.

 

[Jacky12]

Look Andy! Herbie signed this book. At the upper right it says: "$75. signed leather edition." I peeked under the paper cover jacket & saw the nice leather. I found this in mint condition on ebay for around $30. It remains in mint condition because I only opened it a few times to look at all the nice glossy images.


On another note I was exchanging fish pics with my new pen pal in Germany. He said GloFish are banned there as GMO. I was shocked to see the same is true of all of Europe, Canada & Australia, but read many are "accidentally shipped in." lol

 

[Andy Sager]

Look Andy! Herbie signed this book. At the upper right it says: "$75. signed leather edition." I peeked under the paper cover jacket & saw the nice leather. I found this in mint condition on ebay for around $30. It remains in mint condition because I only opened it a few times to look at all the nice glossy images.


On another note I was exchanging fish pics with my new pen pal in Germany. He said GloFish are banned there as GMO. I was shocked to see the same is true of all of Europe, Canada & Australia, but read many are "accidentally shipped in." lol

Yeah, like all books, there are the ones that go retail and then the SPECIAL ones that get signed and special treatment.
If I remember correctly, the book sold for about $25 or $30 when it came out but in my mind, it was worth every penny ( as you can see from your copy.) I'm not sure Herbie's autograph is worth much these days. He may be dead but he is also a convicted felon. His career ended with a thud , not a bang.

 

[Jacky12]

I’m fairly certain your recollection as to the original book’s price is wrong. It’s a massive leather bound hardback with over a thousand pages and many color plates, some full page. Mine was published in 1993. The $75 was a used price, written in pencil.
I saw a 2004 new edition on Amazon for $235 with 2 used editions for $400. Maybe those are the ones Herbie signed from prison. lol. They have a 2007 edition that goes for $305 new and $300 used. I don’t know what edition mine is; I checked and can’t find it. I’m thinking it’s a rare first edition and for you, my friend, I’ll part with it for $500.

I read up on Herbie, had no idea the guy was a crook convicted of tax evasion & other fiscal crimes. I didn’t know he established TFH and sold it for 70 Million in 1970. Fascinating! Appears he fled to Switzerland and died there at close to 90. He fancied himself as quite the Renaissance Man, I see. Or maybe more as the last of the Great Explorers, or probably both. What a guy.

 

[Andy Sager]

I’m fairly certain your recollection as to the original book’s price is wrong. It’s a massive leather bound hardback with over a thousand pages and many color plates, some full page. Mine was published in 1993. The $75 was a used price, written in pencil.
I saw a 2004 new edition on Amazon for $235 with 2 used editions for $400. Maybe those are the ones Herbie signed from prison. lol. They have a 2007 edition that goes for $305 new and $300 used. I don’t know what edition mine is; I checked and can’t find it. I’m thinking it’s a rare first edition and for you, my friend, I’ll part with it for $500.

I read up on Herbie, had no idea the guy was a crook convicted of tax evasion & other fiscal crimes. I didn’t know he established TFH and sold it for 70 Million in 1970. Fascinating! Appears he fled to Switzerland and died there at close to 90. He fancied himself as quite the Renaissance Man, I see. Or maybe more as the last of the Great Explorers, or probably both. What a guy.

I'm not talking about the " collector" editions. The ones we sold are the basic hardback ones. No leather, no signature, etc. It looks like this: https://www.biblio.com/9780866227032
Quite frankly, if you are too concerned about ruining it's value by using it, buy one of the second edition ones that look like the one in my link and use it. This book's "value" is the information inside it so it should be read and used freely. I'd be curious if the ones published in 2007 is an updated version or just a new run of the old info. ( check the copywrite date. If it has multiple ones then it's just a new run of an old book.) I have the 25th edition of Exotic Tropical fishes which has previous copywrites for 14 years. Most of my other books are original publications and well worn from use. lol.
Yeah, HRA turned out to be not the great person his status used to be. And while he is a Phd Dr, his degree is in music not fish or animal science or business.

 

[Jacky12]

That link was to Unter’s book which sells new now at Amazon for $14. I’m talking about Axelrod’s book. I’m not “afraid” to use it, the thing weighs ten pounds and is cumbersome. I bought it because I like certain print books, but do most my reading online. I am in no way concerned about decreasing the value of Herbie’s book, merely curious as to the original price in 1993. I emailed the publishers only to have it bounce back. Same for their online customer service form. I did get through at the magazine and they said they’re “fishing for an answer and will reply later.” lol. I didn’t even know this book was so nicely leather bound and signed until a few days ago. It has a dust jacket covered in clear plastic.

 

[Andy Sager]

That link was to Unter’s book which sells new now at Amazon for $14. I’m talking about Axelrod’s book. I’m not “afraid” to use it, the thing weighs ten pounds and is cumbersome. I bought it because I like certain print books, but do most my reading online. I am in no way concerned about decreasing the value of Herbie’s book, merely curious as to the original price in 1993. I emailed the publishers only to have it bounce back. Same for their online customer service form. I did get through at the magazine and they said they’re “fishing for an answer and will reply later.” lol. I didn’t even know this book was so nicely leather bound and signed until a few days ago. It has a dust jacket covered in clear plastic.

We seem to keep talking about different books I guess. I have no idea then which book you are talking about. Post a pic or link to your book please.

 

[Jacky12]

Please see my post #109. I’m talking about Herbie’s book. I only noticed the signature in post #110 a few days ago. It is indeed a beautiful book. On the back dust cover, H.A. says he’s depicted every known cichlid and if you know of others to contract him through the publishers.

 

[Andy Sager]

Please see my post #109. I’m talking about Herbie’s book. I only noticed the signature in post #110 a few days ago. It is indeed a beautiful book. On the back dust cover, H.A. says he’s depicted every known cichlid and if you know of others to contract him through the publishers.

Okay, that's where you threw me. I'm talking about a disease book in your disease thread and you are talking about a species book in it. I'm not sure about the Lexicon book but there has been a number of books published by TFH publications that are supposed to be the most complete ( i.e. The Atlases, Looseleaf Exotic tropical fish, etc) only to have new species being found all the time. Gary E had 2 new undescribed cichlids when I visited last year. Oliver Lucanus is finding new fish all the time as well.
Hate to disappoint but this book is probably just a compilation of the other books. Yes it's signed, and for some that may be increase it's value, but overall, I have read some non flattering things about it. Typical TFH things like duplicate pics describing different species and it lacking complete information about the fish. There's a set of German books ( the name escapes me atm) that outshine TFH books as for identification and info. Another secret, many of the books that state someone AND Axelrod as authors is really just the other person's book but had to have HRA's name on it to get published and boost sales. So you want to be careful on spending a lot of money on these books. HRA's contributions to books that are not from his personal travels and experiences, are from more knowledgeable people and not him. During my visit in 2019 to Gary E and the meeting with Oliver et al, I found out that Heiko Bleher is following in HRA' s footsteps. Taking credit for things he didn't do. This by people he did it to. So I wouldn't pay him much mind either.

 

[Jacky12]

Hey, I got my ~$30 eBay price worth outta Herbie’s tome. It keeps the back door open for the dogs and flattens rolled up posters.

Makes no difference where those wonderful color glossy photos came from, they’re spectacular. I may rip out some pages of fish I own and frame them for the walls above the tanks. Now all I have are the cheap $2 posters Herbie’s book flattened out.