More fish dying...

[jmcbubbles]

Hi everyone,

I've had a few threads running over the last week or two regarding my new 15 gal tank and the 7 neon tetras I got to start it off, so I'll summarize briefly. One of the fish died after a couple of days, I found this forum and learned about the nitrogen cycle (an ammonia spike was assumed to be the cause of my fishies death). I went and got the Interpet Test Kit and all levels looked normal, except for a very high pH of about 9.0, which was also causing some concern.

Since my last post, I bought the AP Master Test Kit, which is considered the best by a lot of people here. I've tested the water every day since Friday and the levels are still looking completely normal: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 10mgs/l nitrate, and best of all according to the AP kit my pH is 7.2 which is nice and normal.

I hadn't done a PWC in a few days so I did one on Saturday, with a few drops of Stress Coat in the new water to dechlorinate. Lo and behold, got home yesterday to find another one of the fishies dead, and this morning before I left for work, 2 of them are looking very unhealthy, one of them seems to be very weak and keeps doing somersaults, looks like he doesn't have the strength to swim or something, and his gills were moving very fast. It was harder to tell this morning about the others cos the light was off (I have it set on a timer), but I don't think they're looking too good. I don't understand what the problem is, does anyone have any more ideas?

Following advice last week, I was upping the frequency of feedings to a couple of times a day to try to increase the speed of the cycle, but the last couple of feedings the fish just haven't been interested. Even before that, a couple of flakes was enough for all 6 of them, they're not eating that much.

To be honest I'm expecting to go home tonight to find one or two more dead fish, at least. As all the parameters are normal I don't know what could be wrong with them. I'd really appreciate some more advice....

 

[TCTFish]

How much time lapsed between testing the water with the Interpet kit and the AP master kit?

How much Stress Coat did you really use? Was it enough to dose 15 gallons of water? Most dechlorinators call for one teaspoon per 10 gallons.

How much food per feed were they being fed? Upping the frequency of feeding during a cycle establishment can harm the fish due to the extra waste involved.

What I would suggest is to take a sample of tank water to the LFS for them to test with their kits. Let us know the results.

For now...stop putting food in the tank. They may not eat it anyway. They can go without food for a little bit. The water is more important. I'd advise to do small, but frequent water changes. Either 5% a day or 10% every other day for at least a week. Do not get any new fish yet until we know exactly what is up.

How are you doing the tests? It sounds like shock of some type due to a sudden fluctuation of something (such as pH...9.0 can be deadly for neons, especially in a new tank) or perhaps the test results aren't coming out right or not working.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I would belive the AP kit over the Tetra for the pH test. Neon's are not hardy fish and are very sensitive to water conditions. Alot of people find it hard to keep them due to their sensitivity.

Is there an airstone in the tank? What kind of food are you feeding?

 

[jmcbubbles]

How much time lapsed between testing the water with the Interpet kit and the AP master kit?

One day, I tested the water on Friday evening with the Interpet kit and then on Saturday evening with the AP kit. But I have never gotten any ammonia or nitrite result with either of them, and I think the pH test with the Interpet just must have been wrong.

How much Stress Coat did you really use? Was it enough to dose 15 gallons of water? Most dechlorinators call for one teaspoon per 10 gallons.

I only did a PWC, about 30%, and I was using a bucket so it was about 3 buckets of water, with about 2-3 drops in each bucket. I thought that was plenty - no?

How much food per feed were they being fed? Upping the frequency of feeding during a cycle establishment can harm the fish due to the extra waste involved.

I only upped the frequency on Friday and over the weekend they haven't been eating that much. I've only been putting in a flake or two at a time and feeding as they eat, but between the 6 of them they were only going through maybe 2 or 3 flakes. The reason I upped the frequency was to up their waste during their cycle. I was aware that more waste = more ammonia and thats why I've been testing to monitor the ammonia with the aim of doing a PWC when the ammonia reached 0.25 but there hasn't been any increase in ammonia or nitrite levels at all.

What I would suggest is to take a sample of tank water to the LFS for them to test with their kits. Let us know the results.

Every thread I've been reading here says not to trust anything the LFS tells you, especially when it comes to the nitrogen cycle. My LFS never told me anything about when I bought the fish in the first place. I let the filter run through the tank for a few weeks before going back for fish, and I brought in a sample at that time and they said the water was fine. I'm not sure what they tested for to be honest but it was only one test and it was done in a minute so I can't imagine it was ammonia or nitrite/nitrate levels. So would they really be more reliable than the AP kit?

How are you doing the tests? It sounds like shock of some type due to a sudden fluctuation of something (such as pH...9.0 can be deadly for neons, especially in a new tank) or perhaps the test results aren't coming out right or not working.

I'm following the instructions to the letter on the AP kit, I don't see where I could be going wrong. I think the pH from the previous test was just inaccurate, the AP test has show a consistent 7.2 level since I got it.

Is there anything else I can be testing for? I've been testing the all the nitrogen cycle parameters and they all look fine, so what else can I look for. Even if I do go to the LFS it unfortunately won't be until Thursday evening as I work office hours and the LFS is only open office hours, late on Thursdays only.

Is there an airstone in the tank? What kind of food are you feeding?

No there's no airstone. There's a couple of pieces of wood, a shark decoration, some fake plants and one real plant - an Echinodorus Bleheri, with the light on 9 hours a day. WRT the food, I'm not sure of the actual brand but it's just general flake food.

 

[dimdem]

Do you have a bio-wheel filter? With that, you may not need an airstone. As I understand it--and I'm no expert---its splashing mixes enough air into the water for a tank our size. (Mine is a 12 galon.) But you need to have some way to aerate the water for the fish.

What temperature is your tank at? What temp is the water you add when you do a pwc?

 

[BrianNY]

Well jmcbubbles, I think you're on the correct path. As fishyfanatic says, some fish are hardier than others and IME neons are not the hardiest. They prefer soft water and not too high on the temp.

I agree that your lfs probably didn't check anything but pH when they tested your water. Just keep doing what you're doing and be patient.

 

[jmcbubbles]

Thanks Brian, glad to know that I'm hopefully not doing anything wrong - thanks to everyone on this forum!

Yeah a lot of people are saying that the neons are pretty fragile lately, so I'm kinda expecting these guys to die and if that happens then I'll just cycle the tank properly with some shrimp or BioSpira or something, and then start again with some stronger fish - what do you recommend?

Do you have a bio-wheel filter?

I don't think so - its a biological filter with the different sponges? Do I need an air stone with that kind? Bubbles come out the top of that filter anyway so maybe not?

What temperature is your tank at? What temp is the water you add when you do a pwc?

The temp is 81 at the moment. Is that low enough? Its not an accurate heater it just has a knob at the top but no matter which way I turn it it seems to stay at 81 (I use an external thermometer stuck on to the outside). I usually just measure by touch the heat of the water I add in, I think it might have gone up to 82-83 but went back down to 81 in a couple of hours, do you think that could have caused the sudden deaths?

 

[BrianNY]

That's too warm for neons. I'd get the temp down to around 75.

 

[jmcbubbles]

Do you think thats what's causing the deaths then? I don't even know how to get it down, turning the knob on the heater doesn't seem to make any difference at all. I guess I'll contact the LFS and maybe get it replaced if its not working.

The tank is a Juwel 70, does anyone else use them and have any trouble with the heater?

 

[BrianNY]

It's impossible to say for certain what's causing the deaths. It is possible that the higher temps have stressed the neons bringing on infections. I've never heard of the tank you mentioned jmc. I reliable heater and thermostat and a way to accurately gauge the temp is a must for keeping tropical fish.

 

[jcarlilesiu]

I just wanted to add, that they were questioning you tank for oxygenation into the water. Typically with out an airstone, you need some surface aggitation caused by the filter, or a small "splash". Is the water in your aquarium moving around a bit, or are you getting bubbles and splashing from your filter, or does it look calm?

 

[talloulou]

Man every tank I had as a kid had a school of neon tetras. They were long lived, cheap, and extremely hardy. And the tanks my family had as kids were not very well taken care of!!!!! However the neon tetras just don't seem that way anymore. Everywhere you look people are complaining about how they mysteriously die and it's all but impossible to get a good long lived healthy school. Sadly they are also the fish most recommended to newbies at the fish stores. I'd never recommend them to someone starting out. They are just way too frustrating to deal with.

 

[7Enigma]

I'd put my money on the tank temp. That "thermometer" your describing sounds like those little stick-on jobs that lights up different boxes based on the temp correct? They are relatively inaccurate to start with, but the problem is you have this on the outside of the tank! I didn't catch if you have glass or acrylic. Acrylic will have a much greater difference between water temp and outer tank temp. While glass is not the best insulator, the outside of the glass IS NOT the same temp as that in the water.

If your reading 82-83 on the outside glass (after that water change), your tank water very well could have been 85 or greater. That is very high for neons, and lack of oxygen can begin to play a role. I still think the stress from the temp and possible differences in temp during PWC's are causing the problems.

If I've misunderstood your thermometer design, I apologize.

I hope this works out for you!!

 

[jmcbubbles]

No Enigma you're right it is one of those sticky-on jobs, and it's a glass tank. I didn't realise they were so inaccurate - I'll go and get another thermometer for inside the water after work and see what the temp looks like.

How do you guys normally measure the temp in the new water for PWCs? Just with the thermometer from the tank? I don't have a python, I use a siphon gravel cleaner to take water out and then I just fill a couple of buckets and put that water in, and I've been measuring temp just by touch.

The model of tank itself seems to be very common on this side of the pond, I've been to a few different LFS's the last couple of weeks and they all carry the same tank, so maybe it's just not sold over stateside...

And jc yes there are bubbles coming out the filter hitting the suface and creating a bit of turbulence, not a huge amount, but the water is circulating around the tank.

2 more fishies were dead yesterday when I got home I have 3 left now and they're not looking very healthy they look a bit weak and one of them has a swollen tummy. I've still been measuring the water parameters every day and they're all still normal so I guess it must be the temp. I'll pick up the new thermometer after work and if the little guys are still alive today maybe they'll make it if I can get the temp sorted out...

 

[Fishyfanatic]

When I first started doing water changes we used a thermometer to test the new water temp. But now I can do it by touch and am usually maybe 1 degree off.

The tank model that you mention, I've heard it mentioned by other aquarists in your neck of the woods. I guess it's kind of like the Eclipse in the states.

Does anything else about them look unhealthy besides the swollen stomache?

 

[7Enigma]

No Enigma you're right it is one of those sticky-on jobs, and it's a glass tank. I didn't realise they were so inaccurate - I'll go and get another thermometer for inside the water after work and see what the temp looks like.

The problem is that they are extremely thin, so they allow pretty good heat transfer on BOTH sides of the strip. That means any surface airflow (from a fan in the room, your body, just general air circulation) will counteract the heat in the tank, and you'll get a lower reading that actual. The other thing is that if there are any air bubbles beneath the strip, you have an insulation layer that again will not allow the temp to be read correctly. If you have the option, get a digital thermometer that has an "arm" with the temp guage on it so that you can have the actual thermometer submerged in the water (most accurate btw), and have the readout on the outside of the tank for easy use. I was recommended by this site to get this type of thermometer and couldn't be happier.

How do you guys normally measure the temp in the new water for PWCs? Just with the thermometer from the tank? I don't have a python, I use a siphon gravel cleaner to take water out and then I just fill a couple of buckets and put that water in, and I've been measuring temp just by touch.

I only have a 20gallon tank and do as you do with the bucket method and gravel syphon. The great thing about having the digital thermometer with the arm is that you can just take it out of the tank, and check the temp of the bucket water (ideally you would just have two thermometers so you didn't have to remove it from the tank, but I didn't think of that when ordering supplies). This way you are sure your getting as close to tank temp as possible. I'd recommend shooting for 1/2degree ABOVE tank temp to account for temperature changes from actually pouring the water into the tank. This is not enough difference to shock the fish at all, and its always better to go slightly HIGHER in temp than lower.

2 more fishies were dead yesterday when I got home I have 3 left now and they're not looking very healthy they look a bit weak and one of them has a swollen tummy. I've still been measuring the water parameters every day and they're all still normal so I guess it must be the temp. I'll pick up the new thermometer after work and if the little guys are still alive today maybe they'll make it if I can get the temp sorted out...

[/quote]

I'm really sorry for the losses you've been having, as you have tried to do everything right (by monitoring tank levels, PWC's, etc). I'm really concerned now that they are still dying and looking bad. I know these are not the heartiest of fish, but I just hope there isn't some hidden contaminant that the tests can't find...

 

[jmcbubbles]

Thanks for the tip of the thermometer, I'll go and have a look in the lfs later today.

Does anything else about them look unhealthy besides the swollen stomache?

Nothing I can really put my fingers on, they're definitely not as active as they were last week, they're moving just a bit slower and a bit sluggishly. I think their colour may not be as bright but I don't know if I'm imagining that because I know it's another symptom, if you know what I mean. And I did notice that the fins they have on their backs are different from each other, but I'm not sure if they've always been this way. One of them has a standard triangle-y shaped fin, while another one seems to have a long straight one, like a mohawk or something. But again I don't know if these are actual symptoms. Oh and the fact that they're not eating, and haven't been eating much for the last few days. Maybe if I can measure the temp properly and get it down this evening, they might perk up...

I just hope there isn't some hidden contaminant that the tests can't find...

God I hope so too. But sure we'll see how we get on with the temp this evening... fingers crossed!

 

[7Enigma]

About the eating thing. I've heard good results with soaking the food in garlic. Maybe someone else can chime in on how exactly to do this (I assume you can't do this with flake food), but maybe brine shimp or vegetables you could soak them in a small container with crushed up garlic. You really need to get them to eat, as they need all the energy they can get to fight off whatever is causing this...

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Have you tried feeding peas?

Also, check out some of the links in this thread to help determine what is going on with the fish.

 

[jmcbubbles]

Peas?? Really?? Just normal peas? Do they eat them off the bottom?

And shrimp - is that just normal store-bought shrimp? It seems a bit cannibalistic to be feeding them shrimp, I guess not though...

Fishy thanks for that link, there's some great sites there. Sometimes too much information is a bad thing though, just like the docs always tell you not to self-diagnose cos you'll imagine the worst, some of those symptoms are quite vague and point to all sorts of illnesses and ailments, so I think I'll sort out the temp in the tank, try and get them to eat something this evening to get their strength up and see how they get on after that. If they don't improve at that point then I'll look further, guess you just have to take one step at a time.