Need help identifying what's happening to my Tetra

[Vick]

Hi there,

I noticed my Tetra has white along its fins (originally thought it's new growth because they were torn) but now I've noticed 2 patches on its body that don't have as much colour and don't reflect light. I have a photo for reference. If you zoom in you can see the patch almost looks like dry dead skin on a human. Does anyone know what this could be?
I have been battling water quality issues for almost a month after an ich treatment destroyed my cycle. Trying my best to get it to where it needs to be but no matter how many daily water changes, and adding beneficial bacteria, the water stays cloudy and ammonia is always present. I've given up on the daily water changes because it's become too much. Now I do 25% weekly and 50% with vacuuming gravel monthly.

 

[Aiken Drum]

What are your water parameters precisely? I think you have self diagnosed the issue.

 

[Vick]

What are your water parameters precisely? I think you have self diagnosed the issue.

I'll have to do a reading later and get back to you. So you think if it's water quality, it could be ammonia burns/poisoning?

 

[Aiken Drum]

Poor water quality can cause all sorts of issues not just ammonia burns and poisoning. It stresses them out, causes weakened immune systems, and leads to generally poor health and shorter life. They are more likely to get bacterial and fungal infections and less likely to recover from them.

Skimming through your other thread, your ammonia was up around 2ppm and through water changes you got it down to 0.5ppm. You had a highish pH and this makes ammonia more toxic. At your pH trigger levels for ammonia are 0.5ppm will start to give you issues, at 1.0ppm immediate threat to fishes health.

Did you get that seachem ammonia alert? That will tell you more about the ammonia toxicity than an ammonia test will.

Cycling a tank typically takes a couple of months, and you are 2 to 3 weeks into that. If your tank is starting to cycle, then you are probably seeing nitrite now, and that brings different health risks. Although opposite to ammonia, high pH makes nitrite less toxic.

If you cant get on top of water quality then expect to see more issues with your fishes health until your tank cycles and after that your fish that survive will tend to be in poorer health going forward. If there are fish in the tank it will cycle regardless of whether you actively do anything to help. But if you dont do anything to control water quality then it will be to the detriment of the fish you have.

Bottles of beneficial bacteria are generally useless. More often than not they do nothing beneficial. Depending on brand they are usually the wrong type of bacteria to cycle a tank, and even if its a brand that contains the correct bacteria, if it isnt transported and stored at the correct temperature it will have all died off before you get to buy it. Worth a try, but not worth wasting loads of money on it.

 

[Colin_T]

It could be neon disease, which is a bacterial infection that kills quickly.

How long has the fish had the pale blue and red lines, and the white patch over them?

Have you added anything to the tank in the 2 weeks before this started?

What sort of filter is on the tank?
How often and how do you clean the filter?

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To reduce ammonia in the water, reduce feeding, do regular gravel cleaning to remove uneaten food, do big (75%) water changes to dilute the ammonia. Floating plants will use ammonia and Water Sprite (Ceratopteris thalictroides/ cornuta) is a great floating plant for this purpose.

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You can treat white spot by raising the water temperature to 30C (86F) and keeping it there for 2 weeks, or at least 1 week after all the spots have gone. No chemicals needed, just raise the temperature.

*NB* If you use chemicals or heat, increase the aeration/ surface turbulence to maximise the oxygen level in the water.

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As for the white patch on the fish, I would add some salt and monitor it closely. If it gets worse and the fish dies in the next day or two, it is neon disease and you will need to treat the tank with something to kill bacteria. If it doesn't get worse then monitor it and keep us updated.

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SALT
You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria, fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

 

[Vick]

Here's more information about my tank

It's a 29gallon with 6 rasyboras and 2 neon tetras and 1 small angelfish. I used to have 6 of the neons but ich or something else killed them. They lost their colour, torn fins and abdomen became swollen after the ich treatment. The rest of my fish have been okay besides some damage the ich caused but are pretty much healed and acting at least what I believe to be normally. I feed them once a day every other day.
I've tried doing gravel changes often but noticed every time I did, my ammonia wouldn't change and sometimes get higher after a water change so I've limited it to once a month. I did daily water changes of 25-50% for 2 weeks and noticed no improvement for ammonia. I also noticed my fish do not like large water changes which I did a 75% once and they freaked out gasping at the top and swimming up and down and side to side. I use prime. I have to add the prime to my aquarium water first and then add the new water because I use buckets and do about 3 buckets for a water change so there's no way to use prime and it's the only way I can change my water.

Here are my current parameters
PH 6.6
Ammonia 1.0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0
Temp 81f/27c

My tap water is this
PH 7.8/8
Ammonia 1.0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0

My favourite fish is an angel ( i think it's the miniature version) and try to keep the parameters to her liking - lower ph and higher temp.

I did buy the seachem alert for ph and ammonia but they aren't reliable at all. It's very hard to match the colour. And according to the alert, my ammonia is safe but reads 1.0 on my testing kit. I have a photo but can't seem to attach it using my phone. I'll have to try with my computer.
. Im wary of adding anything to my tank (besides plants) because I don't want to affect my angel who seems happy enough. And I've been given alot of advice on here too that contradicts other peoples advice on here so I don't know what's right. Some have said do large water changes while others have said don't do big changes only partial because it will stress the fish too much which I did notice. I'm also cautious about adding anything such as salt to my water. In the past, salt has killed some of my fish (not scaless fish).
I have my air stone at full blast
I believe I have an aquaeon filter and no, I don't know maintenance of the filter besides changing the cartridge and the blue block thing that goes in front of the cartridge which I remove any built up sludge in the dirty tank water after a water change.

Hope that gives some feedback and not sure what to do besides weekly water changes and monitoring water parameters and fish behavior. The neon that looks off is eating normally and acting normal.

 

[Vick]

the photo mentioned

 

[Aiken Drum]

A bit about the seachem ammonia alert patch and your ammonia test kit.

They measure different things.

The test kit doesnt really measure ammonia. It measures total ammonia nitrogen (TAN). Ammonia exists in 2 forms, free ammonia and ammonium. TAN is both of these added together, whereas the patch only measures free ammonia. So an ammonia test kit will always show higher levels of ammonia than the patch because the kit is also including ammonium.

Heres why thats important. Its only the free ammonia thats harmful.

The proportion of free ammonia to ammonium is pH and temperature dependant. The higher these 2 are, more of your TAN will be free ammonia. If pH and temperature increase for some reason, ammonium turns to free ammonia and your water becomes more toxic. If they decrease, free ammonia turns to ammonium and your water becomes less toxic.

Your patch is showing safe because despite having high TAN, the pH in your tank is low so your have low free ammonia. The patch is a far more reliable indicator of whether the water in your tank is toxic than your ammonia test kit.

I would say your patch is between safe and the lowest alert level. Thats probably a good place to be. If you see it creeping up towards the alert colouration then a water change is needed. Do a weekly water change regardless.

 

[Vick]

Thank you for the explanation!! It got not very good reviews on Amazon but since it was recommended, I thought to try it anyway. It probably is working but people (like me) didn't know there was a difference with the test kit. I guess seachem should include a little booklet for a more thorough explanation of what it does

 

[Aiken Drum]

What might be a good example of how this works is take the patch and put it in a container with some of your tap water at a similar temperature to your tank. The pH of your tap water is high, but the TAN is about the same as your aquarium water. The amount of free ammonia should be higher in your tap water than your tank water, and your patch should show this difference whereas your test kit doesnt.

If you go ahead with the experiment let us know the outcome and see if those poor reviews are valid.

 

[Colin_T]

Because there is a big difference in the pH between the tap water and aquarium water, do not do big water changes yet because the pH change will stress the fish. When we work out what is going on, we should hopefully get to a point where you can do bigger or more frequent water changes. But at this stage, just stay with small changes.
If I tell you to do big water changes on another thread, just remind me about this bit.

You should try to find out the GH (general hardness) and KH (carbonate hardness) of your tap and aquarium water to try and figure out why the pH is significantly different. It could be due to the small monthly water changes, or something else. Your water company should have a report on its website that tells you what is in the water. If they can't help, take a glass of tap water and a separate glass of aquarium water to your local pet shop and get them to test the GH and KH for you. Write the results down in numbers at the time. You should also ask what the test is measured in (eg: ppm, dGH, or something else), and write that down too. If you have your own GH & KH test kits you can do it yourself but it normally doesn't change much during the year so most people just get a shop to check it for them a couple of times a year.

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DECHLORINATING WATER WITH PRIME
Why can't you add Prime to your buckets of tap water and mix that up before adding it to the aquarium?

You probably have chloramine in the tap water and this is leaving ammonia in the new water after you use the dechlorinator (Prime). The ammonia is an issue when the pH is above 7.0. Prime is meant to convert the free ammonia into ammonium for about 24 hours, by which time the beneficial filter bacteria should have converted it into nitrite and then nitrate.

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CLEANING FILTERS
Filters should be cleaned at least once a month. However, do not clean a filter until it is at least 6 weeks old and has finished cycling. Cycling is where the filter develops colonies of beneficial bacteria that convert ammonia into nitrite, and nitrite into nitrate. This normally takes around 4-6 weeks but can take longer depending on temperature and other factors.

To clean the filter media/ materials, simply squeeze them out in a bucket of aquarium water. When the filter pads, sponges and other materials are clean, re-use them in the filter. The bucket of dirty water gets poured on the lawn outside.

The filter case can be washed under tap water.

There should be an impellor (magnet with 3 or 4 plastic blades on one end). The impellor and impellor shaft (stainless steel or white ceramic shaft in middle of impellor) can also be washed under tap water. Be careful removing the impellor and shaft because some filters have a small plastic washer underneath a rubber grommet on each end of the impellor shaft. If you lose the washers or rubber grommets, the motor won't work properly and you will have to buy replacement parts. Put a plug in the sink when you wash these or put them in a sieve for flour and rinse under tap water.
The ceramic shafts can break quite easily so handle with care and try not to drop it. The stainless steel shafts are fine and don't have any problems.

Some motors will have the impellor shaft attached and it doesn't come out. These should have a rubber grommet (and maybe a washer) on top of the impellor. You remove these and you should be able to remove the impellor after by pulling it out.

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REPLACING FILTER MEDIA
Do not replace the filter media every month. This is a sales ploy (gimmick) designed to keep you giving money to the manufacturer. If the filter media start to break down, you can replace one piece then and another piece a few months later. But try not to replace the filter media because it houses the good bacteria that helps keep ammonia at 0ppm.
This could be why you are having constant ammonia readings.

The website I am looking at says the filter has a Patented Bio-Holster, removes toxic ammonia and nitrite. If it has this, then that is possibly another problem you are having with the ammonia.

If the filter contains a filter pad with white granules in. The white granules are Zeolite and this stuff adsorbs ammonia and stops the filter bacteria from developing. It only holds so much ammonia and when it's full, you start getting ammonia readings in the water. You don't want Zeolite in a filter. And you don't want their patented Bio-Holster. Find out which part it is and remove it. Sponges are the best filter materials and last for years. They hold gunk, good filter bacteria, and don't need replacing until they start to fall apart (usually a decade or more later).

I am looking at a diagram of the Aqueon Quiet Flow 10 hob style filter online. If you have something like this, you could add some sponge to the filter inside the blue plastic case with slots in. You can buy sponge for a different brand of filter and use a pair of scissors to cut it to fit. Then add the sponge to the current filter media and let them run for a few months. After which time you can chuck the white filter pad and maybe add another bit of sponge.

You can get cylindrical sponges for some brands of internal power filter. These can be fitter over the intake strainer of most external canister filters and add another layer of filtration. This sponge can be taken off each month and washed in a bucket of tank water like the rest of the media.

 

[Vick]

I did the test and unfortunately the seachem alert for ammonia doesn't work. I tested it in my tap water and the colour didn't change. I then tried my unmaintained hospital tank that has algae in it and colour didn't change either.
Very unfortunate because it would have been really helpful.

 

[Colin_T]

How if the neon tetra with the white mark doing today?

 

[Vick]

I currently use this. If it's not good, where can I get other media. Besides that, it's just my filter cartridge. And by media I'm assuming you don't mean the filter cartridge. A lot of people say things that I've never heard of lol.
I can't use the prime on my buckets because I'm using 3-4 buckets of new water and the instructions say based on my tank volume to use half a capful 3ml. That's extremely difficult to treat each bucket of water accurately.
The neon is still alive, eating and acting normally but the fin I still white and the dull part may be spreading. It's hard to tell.

 

[Colin_T]

I currently use this. If it's not good, where can I get other media. Besides that, it's just my filter cartridge. And by media I'm assuming you don't mean the filter cartridge. A lot of people say things that I've never heard of lol.

You want to avoid that filter cartridge (sponge, whatever it is). It interferes with the filtration cycle by removing ammonia. It's also quite expensive.

Any pet shop will sell replacement sponges or cartridges for whatever brand of filter/s they stock. Most shops can also order in sponges for different brands if you ask them to. They should be able to call their supplier and get a price when they order it. You can also check online at places like Amazon or Ebay. I like AquaClear HOB (hang on back style filter) sponges. They come in a range of sizes and are rectangular and easy to cut with a pr of scissors. There's other brands too and they all work. Just try to find a sponge for a filter that is similar sized to what you have and make sure it doesn't have anything added to it (no carbon or zeolite).

Filter media/ materials are basically anything that is in a filter or used by a filter and traps gunk, holds beneficial filter bacteria, or has something like carbon or zeolite in. This can include filter pads & cartridges, sponges, ceramic or plastic beads/ balls, carbon, zeolite (ammonia adsorbing substances), phosphate adsorbing substances, etc. If it's in a filter and used to trap gunk or remove stuff from water, it's filter media/ material.

Fish keeping is a new world for lots of people and many are literally thrown in at the deep end and exposed to all sorts of wonderful new phrases. It's like anything new you do, it can take time to learn the lingo (language) and understand what everyone is going on about. It's easy for me because I have been doing this since the 70s. It will be harder for you just starting out.

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The neon is still alive, eating and acting normally but the fin I still white and the dull part may be spreading. It's hard to tell.

Post another picture when you can or compare it to the picture you posted originally. The fact it's still alive and eating well, and it doesn't seem to be spreading to other fish is a good sign. It could be excess mucous produced by the fish in response to the ammonia in the water.

 

[Vick]

An update:

So the tetra is no longer doing well. I don't know what happened but during the night maybe other fish got to it and basically it has half of its tail fin left. I'd take a pic but now it's hiding. Rest of my fish are acting normally. Angel continues to be busy looking for food lol.
I also believe my angel is over producing her slime coat because the pH is really low (5.4 or lower). Ammonia is still 1 (same as my tap water). I did a 25% water change 4 days ago (Tuesday). I'm just stumped because water quality has been an issue for 2 months and I've been doing the frequent water changes.
I don't know what this means, does anyone know what's going on with my tank when the temp is 81/27, ph is low, nitrite is 0, nitrate is low but ammonia is high?
Here's a pic of what I also have seen on my decor and coming off my angel. My guess is slime coat.

 

[Colin_T]

The stuff on the plastic plants could be the start of filamentous algae or excess mucous from a fish.

A low pH is not going to cause angelfish to produce excess mucous. They naturally occur in water with a low pH, so it's normal for them to be in water with a pH below 6.0.

If you can post a picture of the angelfish with the excess mucous, it might show something that can help ID the issue. Post another picture of the neon when it comes out. The tail might have been bitten off by another fish (possibly an angelfish because they do like live food).

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The ammonia readings and no nitrite or nitrate is probably due to the filter media that removes ammonia. It will work for a short time (a couple of days to a week or two depending on the ammonia present in the water), then it stops removing ammonia and your level goes up.

If you have normal sponges in the filter and no ammonia removing substances, the filters should be able to develop the beneficial bacteria over the next month or so. But right now I would say you are at the start of the cycling process due to the filter media/ materials you have been using.

It's a waiting game for you. The filters need to be able to develop the good bacteria and that will take time. But you also need to remove any filter media that removes ammonia.

 

[Vick]

Here's an update:

I went to a fish store (big Al's) and they tested my water and are stumped at what could be causing me to have such a low PH. They thought possibly that my condo has water softener. My PH was 5.4 or lower and I did a water change 6 days prior and it was 6.8
I also picked up a test to test for KH and GH so now I have that info

My tap water is
Ammonia 1ppm
PH 7.8/8
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0
GH 120
KH 80

I did a 50% water change and cleaned the gravel and my water parameters are
Ammonia 1ppm
PH 6.6
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0/5.0
GH 180
KH 40

I bought the seachem alkilinity buffer they suggested if it starts getting lower. I also bought the seachem stability as well.

Any thoughts as to why my ph keeps going down so low and why it's taking forever to cycle my tank?

Thanks!

Attached pics of my angel for those that asked

 

[Colin_T]

Get a container/ bucket of tap water and test the pH, GH & KH straight away. Then leave the bucket of water for a week and test it for pH, KH & GH each night. Write the results down each night when you do the test, then post the results here.

Take some gravel out of your tank and put it in another bucket of tap water for a week and monitor the pH on that. Test it each day and write the results down. If you have any driftwood or rocks in the tank, put them in separate buckets of tap water and check the pH each day for a week.

These are the most common things that drop the pH rapidly so we put them in buckets of water and check the pH over a week to see if the pH drops. The bucket of water without anything in is the control bucket and this is used to compare the results to the other buckets.

You can test the GH and KH of all the buckets at the end of the week. It's not worth doing them all every day unless you want to.

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If you want to buffer the aquarium water, add some shells, limestone rock or dead coral skeleton. These are all calcium based and will help neutralise acids in the water and stop the pH dropping too quickly or too low. You add a small amount to the aquarium and monitor the pH over 2 weeks. If the pH drops too much, add some more limestone, shells or coral and monitor for a couple more weeks. Continue adding shells, etc, and monitoring the pH until the pH of the water stabilises.

Try not to use a pH buffer because these can cause the pH to go up rapidly and this can cause alkalosis in fish and kill them. If you want to buffer a bucket of water before adding it to an aquarium, you can add some pH up or pH down to the bucket of water, aerate it for 24 hours and then see what the pH is. You want to avoid sudden changes in pH in either direction (up or down) because it is very stressful to the fish. If you have to move the pH up or down, try to only do 0.1 or 0.2 points per week.
(eg: 6.5 to 6.7 then wait a couple of weeks before moving it up to 6.8 or 6.9).

There's not much you can do right now so test the water, gravel, ornaments, etc, over the next week and see what the pH is doing in the buckets of water.

For future reference, most pH buffers that raise the pH are sodium bicarbonate, available from any supermarket.
The pH down (buffer that lowers pH) is normally sodium biphosphate.

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Most filters take around 4-6 weeks to develop the beneficial bacteria, but it can take longer depending on various factors (temperature, pH, KH, oxygen level in the water).

This thread has only been going for just over a week so you probably have another 4 weeks to go due to having the ammonia removing sponge in the filter. Now that has been removed, the filter bacteria should hopefully start to develop.

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The angelfish is a gold pearlscale angel. Gold being the main colour and pearlscale being the bumpy scales on the body that are meant to resemble rows of pearls. It's just a man made colour form.

In the second picture the angelfish appears to have a pink patch on its left side. Is this on the fish or is it the lighting?

The fish does have a bit of excess mucous coming off its fins and I would guess it's caused by whatever is dropping the pH so quickly combined with a bit of ammonium. But more likely whatever is dropping the pH. When we work out what is dropping the pH, the fish should stop producing excess mucous.

 

[Vick]

Can I use this? I live in Toronto, and the options for fish supplies are very limited. I'm not seeing any limestone to purchase. US sites either charge way too much for shipping or don't ship to Canada.