New tank...neons keep dying

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dhp

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Feb 14, 2005
Messages
11
Location
Missouri
Hi all,

We got a 10 gal. tank for our son. It has a Whisper bio filter and a heater set at 72F (my son's room gets pretty cold, he's on an upper corner of the house). We have fairly hard water, so I filtered it through the Brita and added Aquasafe per the directions. It cycled fish free for six weeks with only gravel and fake plants. This past Saturday, we took a water sample to our lfs and they said it checked out great. We got five jumbo neons (that are actually quite tiny-less than 1 inch each), two bubble-eye goldfish (about 2 inches each), and a little pleco (about 1.5 to 2 inches). The store guy said it'd be fine to add them all together and that it would be a good mix for the tank. I floated the bags, added bits of water after 15 minutes a few times for about a 45 minute adjustment total, then put the fish in. All seemed great! The next day (yesterday), one neon was dead. I removed the body and bagged it, got a water sample, and planned to return it today. This morning, two more were dead, so I bagged them too, dumped the water sample and got a new one, and went to the store. They checked the water, said it tested great, and gave me three new neons. When I got home, another one of the remaining two was dead. I removed that body, floated the new ones for water adjustment, then added them. So far, it looks okay. The bubble-eyes seem to be doing great. The pleco is mellow and seems happy enough. The neons never looked sick or acted odd in any way, they did lose color after death, but were not chewed up or anything. The only odd thing I could think of is that the bubble-eyes don't see well at all and miss some food. Maybe the neons are eating more than they should? I've only fed a small amount of flake am and pm since Saturday to try to get a feel for how much they'll eat. The neons catch some, the bubble-eyes eat what they can get, but some invariably ends up in the gravel. The bubble-eyes do seem to be very good at zooming the bottom for food bits, but are the neons overeating since they see better? Or are they just a sensitive fish that dies easily? If these new guys don't make it, would it be better to find a hardier fish that's maybe just a bit bigger? The bubble-eyes are quite active, maybe they stress the neons?

Sorry, I didn't ask the store what the exact outcome of the water test was and don't have a test kit yet, so I don't have any of that info. The temp stays around 74-76F. I know that's kind of warm for the goldfish, but they seem fine. I'm actually surprised it's staying that warm. I have the heater set at 72F to keep it from dipping too low at night. Would it be better to go ahead and set it with the current temp to keep it where it is? I just checked the tank, it's been about two hours and they all look fine.

We used to have two ACFs (one albino/one green) in a 20 long, but they were a breeze. They lived for about four years and got quite large. We used to give them occasional feeder fish. We also have two Bettas in their own little spaces and they do great, we've had them for about a year or so. That's the extent of our aquatic experience. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
 
well for one goldfish and tropicals don't really do well together, tropicals like warmer water, and the goldfish do better in cooler water, that could be part of the reason the neons didn't fair well. For tropicals, shoot for around 78*. Also, that was alot of fish to add at once.
5 x 1 inch=5
2 x 2 inch=4 (should probably add a couple inches due to goldfish being sloppy but, eh)
1.5 x 1=1.5
For a grand total of 10.5 inches of fish, give or take at once 8O . That's about the carrying capacity of the tank, and the pleco and goldfish will groooooow. It's better to stock a few at a time, wait a couple weeks, few more, and so on. There's alot more to be added to this but I've got dinner reservations for Vday
 
OK, I've been reading up some here and am beginning to figure out that maybe neons aren't such a good idea for a new tank until all of the biological levels even out and it's cycled for awhile with fish living in it. Would this be accurate? And that I need to get a test kit if we hope to keep the fish alive. But if there are no signs of illness, how do you know to test? It seems that spikes can happen fairly quickly. How often do you test the water to keep track of how the tank is doing? Thanks again!
 
Neons are not hardy fish and need an established tank to thrive...preferably with soft, acidic water. They are also going to be unhappy at low temps...I'd keep them at least 78* with 80* being preferable. It is not a good idea to mix goldfish and tropicals due to thier different requirements. Although you ran the tank for 6 weeks, it never cycled because there wasn't anything in there to provide the ammonia/nitrite needed to grow the bacteria. You need, at a minimum, test kits for pH, ammonia, and nitrite. I would suggest a nitrate kit as well. While the tank is cycling, you should check ammonia every day until it spikes and starts to drop. Then you should start checking for nitrites following the same procedure you did for the ammonia. I'd check pH every other day during the cycle and until the tank has leveled out. Check out the articles section on this site for more info on cycling tanks.
 
I'd get some test kits from the LFS and do weekly tests. It looks like you want neons but they tend to have dubious reputations when it comes to smaller tanks. This is because the water conditions can change more quickly in a smaller tank. But any way you choose, move slowly and good luck!
 
Thanks Frank_The_Tank, I thought it sounded odd that the lfs guy said it would be okay to add them all at once. I know it maxs out the tank and had only planned on us bringing home one type to start with. This store (which is supposed to specialize in fish and aquariums) had the fish grouped and we were told that all in this particular area would be good together. I didn't really make the connection of the bubble-eye being a goldfish. :oops: I did ask the store guy about the pleco growing since he suggested getting one. My sister always had feeder fish and plecos that literally became HUGE! He said they won't get too big if you don't overfeed them. :? I don't know. I'm actually not real wild about plecos, I prefer snails. We had apple snails with our frogs and they were awesome...fun to watch and great cleaners. I guess the question is...what can we do now? Remove the pleco and goldfish and adjust the tank accordingly for the neons? Will the goldfish do okay without a heater at all?
 
Thanks loganj and SoylentGrundy! My son really likes the neons. But he really likes the bubble-eyes, too. I had read up a little on neons because I knew he liked them, but he just saw the bubble-eyes and liked them, too. It's frustrating that we (who know little) rely on the store employees and get steered the wrong way. Oh well, I'll get a test kit and try to do better. I've read varying information on what temps these guys all do well in, it seems the reality may be a narrower range than what some websites state. The soft water has me a little concerned, too. Would I need to use distilled or half/half? The more I learn, the more I realize that we basically doomed these poor guys to death :(
 
Don't be too hard on yourself, it is a rare, rare, RARE beginning aquarist who doesn't make a few mistakes that send a few fish (or sometimes more) to their eternal home a little quicker than they might have planned. :roll:

Plus, most beginners are given so much bad advice by store emplyees that sometimes I think it is a miracle that ANY fish survive at all! lol From my own experience, if you go to a chain store (Petco, PetSmart, etc.), the odds on advice being wrong are about 90%. If you go to a mom&pop aquarium place, my experience has been the odds run about 50/50. When you think about it, that latter stat is more disturbing than the former. :x

Anwyays, what are you to do? The first thing is that I would suggest you go buy one of those liquid reagent test kits that measure pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. When you are first working on cycling the tank, I would test the water every day until you get a sense as to how much your numbers are moving. If you go 5-6 days and there isn't much movement, then maybe you can go to testing every other day. Etc. Whenever anything is altered (do a water change, a fish dies, etc.), immediately test the water to see what's happening.

Neons and goldfish definitely seem not compatible in the long term, for any number of reasons (temperature being the most prominent one). And sadly, as pretty as they are, neons are not the hardiest of fish at all and are simply not the fish you want to be cycling a tank with. As for water softness, have you tested the hardness of your tap water?

Anyway, it sounds like you have a good attitude about all this, so keep your chin up! And know there are a lot of amazing people here at AA who will do all they can to give you the advice you need. :D
 
Thanks JohnPaul, I appreciate the encouragement! I haven't tested our water, but we have a terrible time with buildup in the dishwasher and such, so I figure it's pretty hard. I specifically went to a non-chain store specializing in fish because I thought they would be more knowledgeable. It certainly is amazing that any fish survive. My son originally wanted neons and a fiddler crab, but THAT combo was nixed pretty quick! At a different store (Petco), they had told us how that would go (and had also said to never put crustaceans in a new tank). He didn't want a "bloody" tank of death. 'sigh' I'll go get that test first thing tomorrow. Hopefully the neons will make it through the night. I went ahead and inched the heater up some to keep the temp stable through the night. I found quite a few goldfish specific sites stating that some species of fancy goldfish, including the bubble-eyes, can do well in warmer water up to 80F. So maybe by keeping the temperature closer to what it is during the day and warming it up some, the neons will do better (if that's the problem). I figured that maybe the temp was dropping down to 72F at night and shocking them. I am concerned that most of these goldfish sites also state that goldfish have alot of waste and need ALOT of water, most recommend 10 gal per fish. Well, if the neons don't make it through the cycling, maybe I can rehome the goldfish and pleco to a 20 long, recycle the tank with something more suitable, and try again. There certainly is a bunch to learn, finding AA is such a relief :!:
 
Sorry to hear about your problems. But good for you to care enough to find out how to correct your mistakes. Lots of people buy aquariums and never bother to learn any thing about the details. You might pick up a copy of Aquariums for Dummies. It has lots of good basic info for someone starting out. Im sure that fish stores don't pay high wages, so chances are good that the guy giving you advice was flipping burgers at McDonalds last week :lol:
 
I'm pretty new to keeping fish also, I bought my tank in december. What helped me the most to learn about the hobby was to just read read read. I found this site and read everything that I could find that was pertinent and even plenty that wasn't (I find myself reading through the sw all the time). All my friends joke that I've become a fish nerd because that's all I read nowadays online. If you do a search on here, there are multiple topics on stocking 10 gallon tanks. I read all of those and got some ideas for fish, and then went to fishprofiles.com and other places and read about them. There's a lot to learn, and it's easy to get overwhelmed with all the information out there, but the best tool I've found so far are messageboards with other knowledgable people.
 
Thanks all! This site has been a great help. Good news, all the fish lived through the night :D I inched the temp up to where it's now around 78F and they all look good this morning. I'm definitely going to keep gathering info, get that test kit, and try to keep them all alive long enough to get them stable and move the goldfish and pleco out (I imagine they cause more severe spikes in a cycling tank since they produce high amounts of waste?). I'll check out the recommended sites and books, too. Thank you all so much! It's nice to be able to ask questions and get straight answers. I'll post parameters after I test the water today. Thanks again everyone :)
 
Well, I think I know the problem. Here are the readings with the noting on the chart in parenthesis: PH 8.4 (alkaline), KH 300 (high), GH 300 (very hard), nitrite .5 (caution), nitrate 20 (safe), ammonia .25 (safe). It looks like the water hardness and alkalinity is likely the problem. I tested our water straight from the tap and got the very same readings on the PH, KH, and GH with 0 for the ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. What I am interested in finding out is how two different employees at the lfs checked our tank water and both found it to be just great for neons :x

I'm going to call the store tomorrow and ask that question, along with whether we can return the remaining fish since NONE of them are good during the cycling process and the bubble-eyes are not good for a small tank. It makes me very angry that employees are dooming these poor fish from the start. If they don't know the answer, fine, but it would be nice if they didn't act like they did. We have no desire to watch these poor guys die a slow death. My son likes the bubble-eyes, but we don't really have the resources (or room) to set up a 20 gal for them. If the store won't take them back, I'll find them a new home. They are fun little fish, but won't stay little and apparently emit far too much waste product for a 10 gal.

So, starting over with people who actually KNOW something...any recommendations on fish this time that will be happy and healthy in a small tank? Quantity is not important; one happy, healthy fish is better than more than one that is miserable, suffering or dead. My son likes the neons because they are pretty and the goldfish because they are lively, but he's a kind boy and understands our current limitations. We all just want what's best for the fish. Thanks!
 
I think you have lots and lots of options for setting up a tank. So don't fret!

For my money, there is no more ejoyable fish in the world than Corydoras catfish...more commonly and affectinately known as "cory cats." Unlike suckermouth-type catfish, which tend to just stay suckered to tank glass all day, cory cats are just little balls o' energy. Get em in a group of 4 or so (all of the same species, ideally), their antics will amuse for hours--especially if you have some rocks and caves and similar things like that for them to explore. Do not get just one, they are said to just sort of be lethargic and eventually waste away--they really need companions of their own kind. The ideal number for a school of them is 5 or 6, but in your case, that would basically fill up your 10 gal tank, so getting maybe 4 seems like a nice compromise. I have had three of them in my tank since the beginning; they have lived through at least two major ammonia spikes (ammonia ~ 1 ppm), three cycles of antibiotic treatment, and a bacterial die-off that created so much cloudiness I literally could not see into my tank 3"...it was almost like the fish were swimming in milk. As soon as I get my own water parameters under control, I am getting another 2 or so corys so that they have a bigger school. My KH and GH are softer than you (both around 80 ppm or so), and my pH is much closer to neutral (usually around 7.2), so I don't know how much of a difference that will make.

P.S. -- If you ever get corys, you MUST at some point get some live bloodworms and feed them. It is the most hysterical thing; the corys suck them up like spaghetti--they get one end in their mouth and then...thwup...they suck the rest of it right in. Too funny.

You can see some nice pics and care info on about 5 different cory variants here http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishindx/catfish.htm . Note there are probably 40+ different species of corys; the most common are the bronze (C. aeneus) and peppered (C. paleatus) corys. Panda corys (C. panda) are almost as common and (to me) among the most striking looking, as well as the Three-line cory (C. trilineatus).

If you did a group of corys like that, then you could maybe have one or two other fish that are more top-dwellers. You could maybe get a single dwarf gourami or something like that. Or maybe a lone swordtail or platy, or maybe a pair. Or a pair of cherry barbs (male/female). If you went a bit smaller, like say guppies, you could probably get a male and two female guppies (if you want babies), or 2-3 males guppies (if you don't). :lol: The only thing to keep in mind is that with any of the livebearers, if you have mixed sexes, you really need 2-3 females per male; if you have just 1 and 1, the male will almost constantly harass the female, to the point of stressing her so bad she will be very susceptible to disease.

Another option would be to go for a larger school of midwater fish, much like your plan to have a school of neon tetras. Zebra danios seem to be about the hardiest fish in the world, you could certainly get 5 or 6 of those for your tank. Quite a number of the smaller barbs and tetras would fit the bill, size-wise, as well. In that case, in order to help clean your gravel, you might consider getting a half dozen or so ghost shrimp. They are cheap, efficient, funny little gravel-keepers. As long as there are no fish in the tank harassing them, they will be out & about all day, walking along the gravel, swimming around, etc. I thoroughly enjoy mine, they are almost as much fun as my cory cats. And the nice thing about them is they add almost zero to the bioload--so if you choose to use your "bioload allotment" for a school of top/middle fish, ghost shrimp are the way to go for your bottom. Note that they *definitely* need a few caves and a couple of plant thickets to hide in, especially when they are molting. So be sure your tank provides that.

More on ghost shrimp here http://www.aquariumfish.net/catalog_pages/misc_critters/shrimp_ghost.htm#top2.

Now in all of what I said, sadly, I have no idea about how your high pH is going to affect all this. I apologize for that. My recommendations are based more on size of your tank. If your water is really pH=8.4, then it sounds like filtering through peat is not a bad idea.

Please keep us posted!
 
dhp, if it's a 10 Gal, why not use a 5Gal jug of distilled water, replace half the water in there, it should drop your hardness quite a bit, this is far more practical with a smaller tank..Then every time you do a water change (let's say 25%) then add half/half tap and distilled... It should end up with a ph of around 7.6 or so. (you can dilute it more with distilled if you want, but don't go over 90% distilled without adding trace elements back in. This will open up your options considerably.. (I keep all kinds of tetras in 7.4 )
 
Well, I spoke with the manager of the lfs where we got the fish. It turns out that both employees that we dealt with are new and are currently taking their tests (they require employees to take six tests). She apologized and said she would follow up with them. The neons never should have been ok'd with our high ph and water hardness, much less that many fish in a new tank. She also said that the goldfish would do fine with just the two of them in there since they get to about 4-5" each and that the hard water would be fine with them. I'm afraid to mess with the ph now since the goldfish are looking good. We have two neons remaining and she said they may make it if they've adapted this far, but we'll just have to see. The pleco they will take back when he gets too big. I told her what the guy said about them not growing if they aren't overfed and she said that nope, it will grow too big (which I kind of figured, I mean my sister's got so big she had to bury it when it died). Since my son really likes the bubble-eyes, we'll keep them and just plan on doing really regular (and frequent) water changes as they get bigger. They actually clean the tank very well in a scavenger-like fashion, so I may just go ahead and take the pleco back sooner rather than later. We'll see how it goes...

Those corys are really cute! Learning all of this and seeing the tremendous variety of fish, I can certainly see why people seem to get "addicted" to fishkeeping. I was looking into the brackish bunch yesterday trying to figure out if that might be a good option with the hard water and came across the mudskippers. They are just adorable! Maybe in the future, when we get a bit bigger home, we'll expand our fishy family members. My interest is quite piqued now, so I'm going to keep on learning about them. I always thought aquariums were just way too much work, but now I'm realizing that with the right knowledge, fish can be very interesting and enjoyable pets. And that a small tank is no less (in some ways maybe more) work than a bigger one. Thanks again to everyone for all the great advice! I'll update on how they're doing and keep lurking here to learn more :)
 
I'm relatively new to keeping fish and have a keen interest in Tetra.
This thread has been thoroughly interesting to read.

I have an 8Gal tank and have 6 Neon Tetra and 6 Harlequin Rasbora.
My water is hard and the pH around 7.8, but I have lowered this with the addition of rainwater (left to sit for a day first) and bogwood, which really helps soften the water.
dhp is certainly right about a smaller tank being just as hard, if not harder to maintain than a big one! The smaller the volume of water you're playing with, the more chemical work it will need. Nature would take over in a much bigger tank.

I've really researched the common knowledge on Neon Tetra (given they're supposedly the world's most popular fish), yet have not found any real authority on them.
I have however found that there is a huge variance in advice to be found around the world. For instance, a lot of people mention that the water needs to be 78F+ and a pH or between 6 and 7, yet my LFS actually breeds them in hard, cold water, pumped straight out of the tap, through a de-chlorinator/filter and into the main tanks. Even my neons seem to be thriving in their ph7.4, 74F environment.

Some say that neons are hardy and can be used for cycling, others warn against it.

I think the big difference between neons and other fish is that they're so widely 'mass-farmed' and imported that they're almost not the same fish they used to be. If you think about it, soon the natural environment for a neon (traced back through its parents, their parents and so on....) would be a large breeding tank somewhere in China, not a sandy Amazonian river.

I would suggest that it was indeed the initial loading on the tank and subsequent ammonia spike that killed the neons, however, I think your tank and water conditions would suit neons fine.
Since you have elected to keep the goldfish, I wouldn't advise adding more neons -goldfish are heavy waste producers and you're more likely to get bigger fluctuations in your NO2, NO3 and NA3 levels. Not good for the little neons.
 
Update on this tank is that everyone died :cry:

Surprisingly, one neon survived for a really long time. One of the bubble-eyes and a neon died and all we had left was the other BE, one neon and the pleco. I kept a close eye on the chemicals twice a day and changed the water as necessary. Then the other neon died. I was gone for two days (unfortunately no one else checked the water while I was gone) and the nitrites spiked super high killing the pleco. None of the readings had ever really changed quickly before. The BE looked bad. I immediately did three water changes one after the other until the nitrites were into the normal range. The BE perked up some, but died the next day. Then the water completely stabilized.

We left it for a couple of days and it stayed stable. We went to another LFS (Petco actually) and I told them I needed to talk to a fish person. We told him the story (he was sympathetic, but unfortunately not surprised when we told him what "aquarium specialty" store we had been to) and we took home three zebra danios. They have been doing just great! After a week, we went back and had our water checked again. We had told the Petco guy we had hard water (this whole area does), but he was still amazed at how alkaline it is. It always registers at the top of the chart which is 8.4 on my kit, even after a water change, so it may be well over that. He suggested that we add a softener pillow (which hasn't really made a dent yet, it's still top of the charts after two weeks). We were having alot of brown algae, so we got an otocinclus catfish. He's also doing fine! Two weeks later (yesterday), we added three blue longfin danios and an ivory snail. The tank is now complete, everyone looks happy :D

A sad way to get here, but now we know to not rely on store employees as much, so we can at least know if their advice sounds reasonable.
 
I'm glad you got some better advice in the end.
I think maybe the three water changes might have had a negative effect on what you were trying to do. In effect you would have almost completely set the tank back to the start and it would have had to start cycling again.
Still, hindsight eh?.... :)

I'd love a Dwarf Oto right now, but even though there's plenty of room for him, he'd probably push me beyond the carrying capacity and I'd be fighting like mad to keep on top of things. Not fair on the fish at the end of the day.
 
So it would have been better to leave the nitrites a little high and lower them slowly? I didn't realize that...I guess I panicked and just wanted them down into the safe range. Yep hindsight. The three Ns zeroed out after everyone died and have stayed there ever since, going on a month now. With the three new additions (four including the snail) I'm going to keep a close eye on things.

The Oto is really cute, he pretty much tries to just stay out of the danios way. They are energetic with a bit of an aggressive edge. The snail keeps hiding inside of the rock, but it wasn't in with any fish, so hopefully it'll get used to them and start coming out more. I love watching snails work, they look like little aliens 0X
 
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