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Old 06-29-2015, 04:01 AM   #1
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Oranda has Red Streaks in Tail Flaky Skin on her Face

My 6 yr old Red cap Oranda (who I love dearly) has very red streaky tail/fins that started today. Tail and around her face appear flaky. Eating ok. Bottom sitting behavior. The tank cycle crashed sometime in the last week - ph fell from 8.2 to 6.2 with ammonia and nitrite spikes. Not sure why, maybe the record high summer heat?


Normally tank is ph 8.2, am 0, Nitrites 0, nitrates 20.
BUT I tested today and ph is 6.2, Am .5 and nitrites .25 .


Tank has been up for 3+ years. Filtration is 2 canisters - Fluval 406, Fluval 306 and large HOB. 2 large Air stones. Tankmates are 4 Full grown fancies. I do 80-90 percent WC once a week.

Changes: new food, using HikAri gold instead of Hikari lionhead.
Record high temps, 108 degrees outside, 84 inside, water temp has risen to 78.

Set up a hospital tank to quarantine. I am not sure how to treat, if it's ammonia/nitrite burns, fin rot/bacterial, septicemia, fungal, internal? So far have only added 2 tbsps salt in 15 gal hospital tank.

Medicine on hand: triple sulfa, maracyn 2, Api fungus cure, methylene blue, Prazipro, Metro+ metronidazole, Metro-meds and Medi-Gold.

Thank you!


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Old 06-29-2015, 04:17 AM   #2
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:51 AM   #3
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:51 PM   #4
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:29 PM   #5
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Old 06-29-2015, 07:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SandyCheeks View Post
My 6 yr old Red cap Oranda (who I love dearly) has very red streaky tail/fins that started today. Tail and around her face appear flaky. Eating ok. Bottom sitting behavior. The tank cycle crashed sometime in the last week - ph fell from 8.2 to 6.2 with ammonia and nitrite spikes. Not sure why, maybe the record high summer heat?


Normally tank is ph 8.2, am 0, Nitrites 0, nitrates 20.
BUT I tested today and ph is 6.2, Am .5 and nitrites .25 .


Tank has been up for 3+ years. Filtration is 2 canisters - Fluval 406, Fluval 306 and large HOB. 2 large Air stones. Tankmates are 4 Full grown fancies. I do 80-90 percent WC once a week.

Changes: new food, using HikAri gold instead of Hikari lionhead.
Record high temps, 108 degrees outside, 84 inside, water temp has risen to 78.




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If you can pick up a kh test or the lfs can test this I think it would be worthwhile. I'd also test your tap ph. I suspect with the high temps either your tap water has changed or the higher temps mean more bacterial activity which chews all your kh buffers up. Or both.

Here over summer the tap ph drops slightly but kh goes quite low.

So I'd check tap water chemistry (ph, kh, ammonia). If tap water is ok then I'd add an extra water change. Also I'd do more gravel vacs and add some crushed coral to filter or tank as a slow buffer.

I'm not a fan of really large pwc's like that on stressed fish. Just my opinion as I'm also a little surprised on nitrates staying up with those water changes. So I'd look into a filter clean as well.

Basically environmental changes to fix tank chemistry back to normal and make sure organic content is low (eg gravel vac, filter clean, extra pwc). Check kh to see if buffers needed.

Then if fish is getting worse I'd look into the meds.
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Old 06-29-2015, 07:29 PM   #7
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Oranda has Red Streaks in Tail Flaky Skin on her Face

Is the QT cooler then DT?

Edit - on the metro medicated food, do you know what meds are in each product?
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Old 07-10-2015, 07:01 PM   #8
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Thank you for your help. The QT was not cooler and she quit eating when isolated so is back in Dt. Not getting better. Not worse though.

Tap water: Ph 8.0, gh 13, kh 8. Am 0, NO2 0.
DT one week after water change: Ph 6.6, gh 14, kh 2. Am .25, No2 .25.
What is going on in this tank? Why is the ph buffer falling? I can't figure it out. The tank next to it tests ok.
I have 6 other tanks, all tested normal. But they are tropical.

My big fancy goldfish were maintaining high nitrates (80+) until I added second canister and did big water changes. I tested tap water ph before doing water change, it tested ph 8.0.

Sorry, I am not sure what is in metro-meds from goldfish connection. No ingred listed.

I have seachem equilibrium. Do you recommend using it now? I know that these big big ph swings are hard on the fish. The one affected is the oldest.

I need to do something to help her before an infection sets in. I think I will put her back in QT because the ph did not keep crashing there. Poor thing.
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Old 07-11-2015, 08:59 PM   #9
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Oranda has Red Streaks in Tail Flaky Skin on her Face

Yikes for sure. Thanks for the information back. Lol, not sure much help - just tossing out ideas.

Gh is good and not lifting (benefits of large water changes )

I'd increase the carbonate buffer. Especially as gh is stable and not going high. Either commercial (but not phosphate based) or hardware DIY style.

Seachem equilibrium looks more for planted tanks and won't hold the ph needed here.

I'd do crushed coral carbonates (I always have some in tank as a backup plan). But I find it slow reacting.

I'd also carefully add baking soda and gradually dial that in. The baking soda will lift ph much faster so I'd start off at say a quarter dose (sorry don't have dose rates) and gradually lift dosage rate. While browsing in a lfs I found some calcium carbonate solution so use a little of that each week (rather than baking soda) as a tweak just in case the sodium in the baking soda is an issue for my plants.

It sounds complicated DIY kh buffer dosing but I found within a week it's all on the road to being sorted.

Meds - imo this is a little tricky as your nitrifying bacteria already sound stressed and meds dosing won't help. Medicated fish food that treats for bacterial infections would be the one I'd use if the goldfish gets worse or is doing poorly. Imo I'd do the carbonate buffers and get tank stable as priority.

Also I'd keep eg prime on hand to detoxify the ammonia just in case. It's fine at the ph and ammonia level, but will get more toxic if the tank ammonia level and ph increase (as well as high temps making ammonia more toxic anyways).

Last one is you could try pm'ing jlk? Haven't seen many posts lately but pm may reach.


Edit - only other comment is I think once tanks go out of whack, they take time to come back. Say your nitrifying bacteria were dying off a bit; other bacteria are eating them and it might be like a small battle field going on until it all settles down back to status quo.
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Old 07-14-2015, 12:38 AM   #10
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She is in QT and the last two day she has taken a turn for the worse. Fin rot progressing rapidly. Ph in QT is 8.2

I have added salt, 3 tbs in a 15 gal tub. 50% water change daily to maintain clean water. Adding salt back per quota.

4 days ago I added API Fungal Cure because I thought maybe she had a fungal issue with white tufts around her face. Tufts seem to have lessened.

Also made a gel based medicated food with metronidazole according to Hikari website instructions. Eating ok.

Added API Triple sulfa (3 sulfa antibiotics) to water, but with high ph I believe it is ineffective.

Fin rot getting worse.

I think I will switch to feeding Maracyn 2 (minocycline). The medicated store bought food (Medigold and Metromeds) has expired. These have saved her in the past. She is susceptible to fin rot, and was chased this spring by a randy male.
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Old 07-14-2015, 12:41 AM   #11
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Old 07-14-2015, 12:49 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delapool View Post
Yikes for sure. Thanks for the information back. Lol, not sure much help - just tossing out ideas.

Gh is good and not lifting (benefits of large water changes )

I'd increase the carbonate buffer. Especially as gh is stable and not going high. Either commercial (but not phosphate based) or hardware DIY style.

Seachem equilibrium looks more for planted tanks and won't hold the ph needed here.

I'd do crushed coral carbonates (I always have some in tank as a backup plan). But I find it slow reacting.

I'd also carefully add baking soda and gradually dial that in. The baking soda will lift ph much faster so I'd start off at say a quarter dose (sorry don't have dose rates) and gradually lift dosage rate. While browsing in a lfs I found some calcium carbonate solution so use a little of that each week (rather than baking soda) as a tweak just in case the sodium in the baking soda is an issue for my plants.

It sounds complicated DIY kh buffer dosing but I found within a week it's all on the road to being sorted.

Meds - imo this is a little tricky as your nitrifying bacteria already sound stressed and meds dosing won't help. Medicated fish food that treats for bacterial infections would be the one I'd use if the goldfish gets worse or is doing poorly. Imo I'd do the carbonate buffers and get tank stable as priority.

Also I'd keep eg prime on hand to detoxify the ammonia just in case. It's fine at the ph and ammonia level, but will get more toxic if the tank ammonia level and ph increase (as well as high temps making ammonia more toxic anyways).

Last one is you could try pm'ing jlk? Haven't seen many posts lately but pm may reach.


Edit - only other comment is I think once tanks go out of whack, they take time to come back. Say your nitrifying bacteria were dying off a bit; other bacteria are eating them and it might be like a small battle field going on until it all settles down back to status quo.

Yes you are right about the equilibrium for planted tanks and great info all around about the params. For now on DT I am doing daily 20 % WC to slowly bring ph back up - I hope! In meantime will work on the diy suggestions you gave for buffering and getting my goldfish better. After 4 years I am pretty attached. She has been so strong enduring all my mistakes.

I will try Jlk, I hope she still checks here...
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Old 07-14-2015, 03:51 AM   #13
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Our tap water has almost no KH.

It wasn't too much of an issue until I stopped using frequent liquid ferts. I think there was enough minerals from the ferts to keep it from crashing.

The tank had a huge pH crash.

I have started using Kent Marine - Superbuffer-dKH - Works for me in my FW. Just add in until you get the right amount.

It took me a few weeks because I was being very gradual, using the lowest amount with it, having no previous experience using it, and I only did it initially once every 24 hours for a few days then waited a few days to see how stable it was then did a few more days and waited to see if it was stable.

After I figured how much I would need for my tap water I think it took a little more initially, I have been continuing with this process.

I had the problems with no KH in my tap water (no buffer) and I use this, and also for my 72G tank with 1/4-1/3 Cup of Epsom Salts (not really salt - magnesium), a slightly rounded teaspoon of baking soda, with larger pwc. All dissolved in treated water. That is the ratio which I built up to which I found is good for my tank.

I mix it all in really warm water in a 32 oz cup till dissolved add Prime after it cools or add cold water to make it similar temp and add a portion back into each 5G bucket of fresh replacement water till it is all mixed in.

It took some weeks to get it stable.

I hope you get the right medication figured out.
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Old 07-14-2015, 05:50 AM   #14
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Oranda has Red Streaks in Tail Flaky Skin on her Face

Quote:
Originally Posted by SandyCheeks View Post
She is in QT and the last two day she has taken a turn for the worse. Fin rot progressing rapidly. Ph in QT is 8.2

I have added salt, 3 tbs in a 15 gal tub. 50% water change daily to maintain clean water. Adding salt back per quota.

4 days ago I added API Fungal Cure because I thought maybe she had a fungal issue with white tufts around her face. Tufts seem to have lessened.

Also made a gel based medicated food with metronidazole according to Hikari website instructions. Eating ok.

Added API Triple sulfa (3 sulfa antibiotics) to water, but with high ph I believe it is ineffective.

Fin rot getting worse.

I think I will switch to feeding Maracyn 2 (minocycline). The medicated store bought food (Medigold and Metromeds) has expired. These have saved her in the past. She is susceptible to fin rot, and was chased this spring by a randy male.

Just saw this on fin rot getting worse. You might be thinking of the tetracycline meds group not suited so much to high ph water? Link below. Just in case useful.

I can think of meds options(?) but might be better off with whatever worked last time maybe?.


http://www.americanaquariumproducts....ml#minocycline

Edit - just remember high temps. If not fungal then columnaris could be the white tuffs and a bit more serious.
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Old 07-15-2015, 06:09 PM   #15
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Thank you again for the info. The dreaded C word for fish. I sure hope not. I will keep an eye out for open sores. What stood out in the article is that columnaris can be caused by exactly what happened in my case: a spike in temp, an older weaker fish, bullying by another fish, high aeration and a lack of minerals.

On another forum for goldfish a mod suggested I stop all meds, gradually increase water to .3% salinity and give daily dips in Meth Blue. She thinks the fish should have a full recovery. I will update on progress.
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Old 07-15-2015, 08:34 PM   #16
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Hope it works out. Thanks for the update.

I'd just about think any med approach would work that covers low level infections so the idea from the other poster sounds reasonable. The MB covers fungus and low level external bacterial infections.

I must confess some alarm bells have been going off on this one. I suspect that a smaller fish like a platy or tetra would be long gone, it's the size of your fish that is helping out plus your obvious care for the fish.
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Old 08-16-2015, 09:02 PM   #17
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Hope it works out. Thanks for the update.

I'd just about think any med approach would work that covers low level infections so the idea from the other poster sounds reasonable. The MB covers fungus and low level external bacterial infections.

I must confess some alarm bells have been going off on this one. I suspect that a smaller fish like a platy or tetra would be long gone, it's the size of your fish that is helping out plus your obvious care for the fish.

Hi again. Wanted to check back. My goldfish seems to be slowly getting worse, even with the salt treatments and MB dips. Her symptoms are: fin/tail rot that is not getting worse or better, white stings hanging off her (which have lessoned), labored breathing, weakness, unable to submerge for long, sometimes unable to stay upright. Does this sound like columnarias? She is still eating what I hand feed her. I am regretting not giving her antibiotics. :-( What antibiotics would you recommend? Would I be able to know for sure it was columnarius if I bought a microscope? I am not sure what is going on, other than she is not bouncing back after the ph crash.
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Old 08-17-2015, 03:54 AM   #18
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That is a shame. I guess the temp is still up?

My thought would be it is a gram negative, external bacterial infection (fin rot, etc). This is the most likely and any med that can treat for that should have a good chance of success.

Medicated foods are mainly the best to use but depends what you can get.

Medicated food (Maracyn 2 - minocycline) worth a try. Another one would be furan-2 with/without kanaplax.

Metronidazole is more for internal infections. Tetracycline is pretty dated now and I'd skip use of this one since you have better options.

Triple-sulpha can work but it relies on the fish fighting off the infection as well (works better combined with Ormetoprim = Romet).
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Old 08-17-2015, 05:58 PM   #19
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That is a shame. I guess the temp is still up?

My thought would be it is a gram negative, external bacterial infection (fin rot, etc). This is the most likely and any med that can treat for that should have a good chance of success.

Medicated foods are mainly the best to use but depends what you can get.

Medicated food (Maracyn 2 - minocycline) worth a try. Another one would be furan-2 with/without kanaplax.

Metronidazole is more for internal infections. Tetracycline is pretty dated now and I'd skip use of this one since you have better options.

Triple-sulpha can work but it relies on the fish fighting off the infection as well (works better combined with Ormetoprim = Romet).

I am going to make a batch of medicated gel food per the instructions on the Hikari website. Cant find any Furan-2 so I will order more. I have maracyn 2 and the metronidazonole Hikari Metro+.

Can I combine the 2 in the same food? My thought is to cover both external and possibly internal infections (causing her to float on her side?)

I have also ordered colloidal silver, per another persons suggestion. What would that be used for?
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Old 08-18-2015, 04:22 AM   #20
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I am going to make a batch of medicated gel food per the instructions on the Hikari website. Cant find any Furan-2 so I will order more. I have maracyn 2 and the metronidazonole Hikari Metro+.

Can I combine the 2 in the same food? My thought is to cover both external and possibly internal infections (causing her to float on her side?)

I have also ordered colloidal silver, per another persons suggestion. What would that be used for?

I'm speculating but I couldn't find anything that said maracyn 2 and metro can't be combined. A medicated food is a great idea and the way to go.

On the other hand maracyn 2 had a few warnings on combining with other antibiotics so would need to watch fish carefully if you do. I'll keep looking to see if there is anything definitive listed somewhere. Metro is generally pretty safe combined, it's the maracyn 2 to look into.

Colloidal silver - also looking into that. Gut feeling is the antibiotics are needed and if you are doing those then MB dips would be enough. Also looking into this though as have never used it. Perhaps someone else knows.
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