Oranda Wen Issue - Not sure if Normal Growth or Fungus

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lratledge

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Oct 31, 2013
Messages
19
Location
Denver, CO
1. My Oranda who I estimate to be 2 years old has had a few white spots on his wen. The two scariest for me started out very bulbous, like a cystical pimple on a human. The largest then opened up & had white fluffy stuff hanging out. Based on advice I read here & elsewhere, I swabbed it with hydrogen peroxide. The white is now gone, however he has a darker reddish indentation now that I'm not sure is going to close.

2. Tank parameters measured around 40 mins ago (ammonia .25, nitrites .125, nitrates 40 ppm, temp 71 F, pH 7.6). Last week Ammonia was between 0-.125. I use the liquid test kit made by API.

3. Tank is 72 gals and has been setup about 2 months. I gave it one month to cycle before adding the Fancy goldfish.

4. Filtration is an Emperor 400. I have the floss filters installed along with charcoal trays.

5. There are 4 Fancy goldfish - all Orandas. Two are about 1.5 inches long, and one is about 3 inches long. My sweet Puffy is about 5 inches long and he was absolutely gorgeous & so friendly.

6. I performed a 25% water change two nights ago with thorough gravel vacuuming. I do this almost every week because I understand that Fancy Goldfish create a lot of waste.

7. I have had all 4 fancies for a month and all were added to the tank at the same time after allowing them to sit in the tank in their bags for about 25 mins.

8. Added several aquatic plants to the tank about 10 days ago, replacing what were originally silk plants. My fancies love the plants! Substrate is black gravel about one inch deep.

9. Because these guys are omnivores, I feed them a huge variety of things. I alternate Omega One Medium pellets and Tetra One Goldfish Crisps along with occasional blood worms, frozen brine shrimp, peas every couple of days, an occasional chunk of banana, spirulina flakes & rarely brine shrimp flakes.

Now that I've introduced my tank, the problem I am concerned with is hopefully just wen growth on the Oranda. For about the last 5 days I'm worrying about what started as two different bulbous extruding pimple like structures from Puffy's wen. One day the wen was fine, the next day and the following day he had 2 of these "pimples". The first one seemed to clear on its own, but the 2nd one was larger & when it opened up, white stuff was hanging out of his wen. It sort of looked cotton like, but was definitely not worms. After reading advice on this site & others I cleaned the spot with a Qtip dipped in hydrogen peroxide. It immediately bubbled up (as it does for humans) and looked very white when I returned him to the tank. The white from this spot has gone away, but now he has a bit of a crater there and it's a darker red than his orange wen. He also has two tiny red dots near his mouth that I suspect are just from bumping into the driftwood. Lastly, the crevice on top of his wen looks white, so I also wiped it with hydrogen peroxide.

I am attaching a link to the photobucket page where I stored 4 photos that I hope will help diagnose what's going on.

lmratledge's's Library | Photobucket

TIA for any advice! I have fallen deeply in love with this cutie pie and don't want to lose him :(
 
JLK is a great Dr of fish on here...send a PM. Do a 40% WC, your ammonia and nitrites are high........... use Seachem Prime to condition water.
1) if there is "cotton" treat for fungus 2) An all natural medicine that has saved my fish many times is Voogle. Try to find it. Or go to site drsfostersmith.com it is an antibacterial antiviral - very good for the immune system. Another good immune boosting fix is feed "fish food" soaked in garlic oil. Seachem Garlic Guard. Add mitrocondizol + focus from Seachem. To the food too. It CAN'T hurt to try to heal from inside
 
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Welcome to AA!!!

Thank you for posting great information as well as pics! This is very helpful! I will suggest the same thing here for starters. Your tank is not cycled yet and the presence of ammonia and nitrite is an issue that can be easily addressed with water changes. The nitrate level is also higher than I am comfortable with for delicate fancies as it can suppress their immune system and result in further issues. Water changes will drop your nitrate level as well and the lower you can keep it, the better for your orandas and their health.

From just your description, I would say its just normal wen growth. A small white type of 'pimple' will appear. They will come and go and occasionally will have bits of white fluff/thread. However, your pics tell a much different story. Is there only one wen fish affected by this? Lets start with getting your parameters in check and go from there! :)
 
Confused???

Welcome to AA!!!

Thank you for posting great information as well as pics! This is very helpful! I will suggest the same thing here for starters. Your tank is not cycled yet and the presence of ammonia and nitrite is an issue that can be easily addressed with water changes. The nitrate level is also higher than I am comfortable with for delicate fancies as it can suppress their immune system and result in further issues. Water changes will drop your nitrate level as well and the lower you can keep it, the better for your orandas and their health.

From just your description, I would say its just normal wen growth. A small white type of 'pimple' will appear. They will come and go and occasionally will have bits of white fluff/thread. However, your pics tell a much different story. Is there only one wen fish affected by this? Lets start with getting your parameters in check and go from there! :)

Hello JLK and thank you for responding to my post!

I don't understand how my tank wouldn't be cycled after two months? I am doing 25-30% water changes about every week. Is this too frequent? I also added 3 aquatic plants recently, but those should help my levels, no? The API testing kit says Nitrates <=40ppm are acceptable. What level do you recommend for Fancies?

Puffy is doing much better today! His "hole" is closing nicely and I can see some new wen growth (which are tiny in comparison to the older wen). None of the other 3 Orandas have any issues whatsoever! Please see attached new pics of Puffy just taken a few mins ago.

The only other thing I can think is that we located the tank in a great area, that unfortunately at this time of year is getting some direct sunlight from two tall windows. I am seeing a bit of algae growth on the glass and the water has been cloudy for a few weeks. We've not seen an algae "bloom" however. Could algae be affecting Puffy's wen?

Also what did you mean by "However, your pics tell a much different story"? You have me even more worried now.....

Beyond water changes, which I'm concerned might be too frequent at this point, what chemicals if any, do you recommend to bring down ammonia & Nitrites? Shall I follow Bkiggy's suggestion to start with Seachem Prime to condition water, I am currently using Petsolutions.com water conditioner? Do I need the Voogle (which I was able to find on Amazon) or the fish food" soaked in garlic oil? Is water temp at 70-71 F acceptable? I've read so many conflicting thoughts on this.

My Orandas (especially Puffy) have totally captured my heart as well as my daughter's. We just can't stand any losses so we greatly appreciate any and all advice!

I am also considering purchasing a Cascade 1200 canister for my Orandas. I just don't think the Emperor 400 is cutting it. LMK your thoughts on all of the above.

TIA,
Lisa:confused:
 

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Hello JLK and thank you for responding to my post!

Please see my responses in blue. :)

I don't understand how my tank wouldn't be cycled after two months? I am doing 25-30% water changes about every week. Is this too frequent? I also added 3 aquatic plants recently, but those should help my levels, no? The API testing kit says Nitrates <=40ppm are acceptable. What level do you recommend for Fancies?

Two or more months to fish-in cycle is pretty typical. Water changes (wcs) really need to be bigger and more frequent to address ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Nitrate levels with delicate fancies really should be kept to a minimum- I would honestly try to keep them at 10ppm or less. Plants are a great addition but it will take quite a bit more to have an impact on water quality.

Puffy is doing much better today! His "hole" is closing nicely and I can see some new wen growth (which are tiny in comparison to the older wen). None of the other 3 Orandas have any issues whatsoever! Please see attached new pics of Puffy just taken a few mins ago.

Thanks for the new pics!

The only other thing I can think is that we located the tank in a great area, that unfortunately at this time of year is getting some direct sunlight from two tall windows. I am seeing a bit of algae growth on the glass and the water has been cloudy for a few weeks. We've not seen an algae "bloom" however. Could algae be affecting Puffy's wen?

Can you please try something for me? Scoop out a cup of water in a white coffee mug/something similarly opaque white. Look at the water and see if there is any green tint to it (it will be obvious if there is). If there isn't, its a bacterial bloom from excess dissolved organics.

Also what did you mean by "However, your pics tell a much different story"? You have me even more worried now.....

First, don't panic! Your new set of pics does not appear quite as severe as the first! Lets take this step by step and start by addressing the water quality first along with diet. If her situation changes or does not improve, then we can look at other options. No more peroxide treatments for now. Lets work on getting the tank healthy.

Beyond water changes, which I'm concerned might be too frequent at this point, what chemicals if any, do you recommend to bring down ammonia & Nitrites? Shall I follow Bkiggy's suggestion to start with Seachem Prime to condition water, I am currently using Petsolutions.com water conditioner? Do I need the Voogle (which I was able to find on Amazon) or the fish food" soaked in garlic oil? Is water temp at 70-71 F acceptable? I've read so many conflicting thoughts on this.

Prime is great stuff as well as economical to use. No voogle or garlic oil food right now. 70-71f is fine!

My Orandas (especially Puffy) have totally captured my heart as well as my daughter's. We just can't stand any losses so we greatly appreciate any and all advice!

I am also considering purchasing a Cascade 1200 canister for my Orandas. I just don't think the Emperor 400 is cutting it. LMK your thoughts on all of the above.

I have a couple 400's and I honestly do not care for them. On a 70+g tank with messy fish, you definitely need to improve filtration. Ideally, you want a minimum of 10x the tank size in filtration but more is definitely a plus. You may also want to consider adding some tank circulation if the new filter being added doesn't seem to help. A powerhead can help with this.

TIA,
Lisa:confused:

A few questions so we can see where we are at. Can you test your tap for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph and let us know what this reads? It will give us a base point for your tank and let us know if there are any concerns with your tap water. I believe you mentioned what you feed them in your first post but I will need to reread it. Is there one food they eat primarily as a staple food (something fed daily)?

Your water changes are definitely not too frequent either and addressing this will go a long way to improving the health of everyone in your tank. The wc schedule I follow with fancies is on the extreme side for most general aquarists but is pretty much the norm for fancy hobbiests (lots of very big wcs, very often). Serious breeders follow more extreme wc schedules of up to 100% daily but I don't expect a hobbiest to follow such a schedule (I can't either). Hope this helps some and we will work on getting your tank in shape! :)
 
Dear JLK,

Thank you so very much for answering all my questions!!

I scooped up water in a cream colored mug & sadly the water is not green. How do I treat a bacterial bloom?

I just read about the power heads. Do I need one that handles 400 gph for my tank size?

Regarding food, most days I feed them Omega Goldfish pellets combined with Tetrafin Goldfish crisps. Do you suggest any changes here?

TIA - again :)
 
Does anyone think the Hydor Koralia Evolution Aquarium Circulation Pump 750-850 is too strong for my goldfish, or should I go with the next level down 550-600?
 
Try New Life Spectrum food!! Omega is a great food too, IMO anything "tetra" is bad. It's made by Hartz . ;(
Emperor 400 is only for 80 gallons, and your tank is 72 gallons. You need at least 1 more ...
I use Fluval 406 on a 40 gallon !!!!!!
* bacterial bloom will clear itself in time
 
Definitely add another filter first before adding a circulation pump. A circulation pump may not be necessary but if your considering one, the 300-400 range one should be sufficient without blowing your fish around. I use 300gph powerheads on my 55's and they create a sway in the plants but do not bother the bigger fish (I use them with sponges too). I did though have to pull them on my fry tank as it was too much for the babies.

Bacterial blooms will resolve themselves with time but as your dissolved organics (in addition to ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) are likely high right now, this needs to be addressed with water changes. The excess organics feed the bacteria responsible for the bloom. Do you have adequate surface agitation for oxygen exchange?

I agree to toss the Tetra food. The ingredients are very low to poor quality and include fillers such as cornstarch and a slew of artificial dyes (some which are known carcinogens). If you would like to include garlic, either soak the food briefly in plain garlic juice (not oil) before feeding or try NLS Thera A with garlic. Please ask any questions! :)
 
Thanks to both of you for all the guidance yesterday & today. I am preparing for an 80% water change. Hope my babies don't go into shock.

Tetra foods are going in the trash! I need to decide on which filter - the Cascade 1200 or the Fluval 406. We have a Cascade in the tropical tank & I at least know how that one works. Care to weigh in on which filter is better?

One thing I forgot to mention is that I do add aquarium salt when I do the water changes. Are you both in agreement that this is healthy for my fancies?

TIA (Again)
Lisa
 
Start with a 50% water change. They are not used to big wcs yet and gradually adjusting them will be better. Tomorrow, you can change another 50-60% then 75% on Monday if all goes well.

How much salt do you normally add? Do not add it back with your wcs and the salinity will be gradually reduced with each successive wc. Fancies are stenohaline fish which means they have very little tolerance for salt. It can be used appropriately as needed as a med for short durations but long term use can result in renal, metabolic and endocrine damage. Save it for medicinal purposes only. :)
 
Looking Much Better Now!

Poop! I went straight to work on the wcs & just now saw your message. I typically follow the API salt instructions of 1 tbsp to every 5 gals of new water. I am careful to melt the salt in the water before adding it to the tank so the fish can't eat it.

I ended up with an approx 75% WCS and added 9 tbsp of aquarium salt. They are used to the salt by now, but I will stop using it for subsequent WCS. I have to say the water looks amazing right now, but I am still going to buy a canister filter.

Ugh, I feel so uneducated. Can you suggest a very comprehensive book on Fancy Goldfish? I used google here and there to determine that salt was "great" for gill function & overall health :(.

Here are some new pics that show how Puffy is healing. Only spot I'm still worried about is a new white dot on the top crevice of his wen (2nd pic down). I didn't try to rub it or add any meds to it. Thoughts on what, if anything I should do for it?

:)
 

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No problem! Let us know how everyone is doing tomorrow and how your parameters look. Salt in higher doses can interfere with bacterial development in a tank so this may be playing a part In your cycle too.

I am afraid I am viewing your pics from my cell so it's a bit difficult to see what's going on. I will take a look at them in the morning from my computer. If anything changes, please let us know!
 
Did forget one thing! Probably the most recent quality book out there is Dr Erik Johnson's book on fancy goldfish. Some consider it the 'goldfish bible' but remember not everything is set in stone and science is constantly changing. :)
 
Did forget one thing! Probably the most recent quality book out there is Dr Erik Johnson's book on fancy goldfish. Some consider it the 'goldfish bible' but remember not everything is set in stone and science is constantly changing. :)

Go on Amazon and search "Fancy Goldfish Care"
- my canister filter Fluval 406, for a tank up a 100g. or 450gph, on a 40 gallon tank..... I only clean it out Once a Month !!! Only rinse media off and put it back together.
- if u do get a canister , what ever brand it may be, get a "spray Bar" if it does not come with one.
Fluval comes with a Nozzle and it created serious current in the tank!! Pushed everything to one side. Had to take that off and get diffuser spray bar
FYI
 
Go with cascade 1200, it's bigger and better for your tank. - Use media from the filter you have now VERY important , just put it in your new canister !!!!! Even consider adding Seachem Stability , it adds beneficial bacteria to cycle
 
Hi All,

So I just made a Craigslist purchase of 2 gently used Penn Plax Cascade 1500s to ensure my sweet Orandas are always living in the best, cleanest water. We will use one filter to start, but maybe keep the other for parts.

The seller left me with all the dirty floss & carbon bags along with ceramic Bio Balls & the black plastic Bio Balls. He said he used the filters on freshwater fish but I don't know what type.

So here's my question: is there any risk to my fish by re-using these two bio filtration? I have no idea if his fish got sick, or if that could potentially harm my fish. I understand you're only supposed to lightly agitate this type of medium rather do a full traditional clean so I'm worried about exposure to ICK, and other nasty things, especially since my tank is looking amazing lately. Do you think it's also safe to reuse the black Bio Sponges he left? They seem in good shape - almost new. I'm definitely tossing all the white, thinner bio floss though.

Also wanted to share an update on Puffy. His wen looks amazing now. No pock mark remains where the white "pimple" erupted. He does have this little black mark near his mouth that I tried to remove with a dry Qtip and was unsuccessful. Any thoughts on whether I should treat or be concerned? He does get aggressive sometimes munching on substrate :).

Appreciate the help in advance!
 

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1) take the media out of your Emperor and put all of it into the new Penn. Run the other Penn with media from seller. Just rinse REALLY well with YOUR tank water (like, in a bucket) there is a very very small chance it poses an issue. You need that Beneficial Bacteria
2) get a bottle of Seachem Stability and add accordingly - it adds beneficial bacteria also. Seachem is the best out there
 
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