Possibly Ich--how do I treat a scaleless fish?

[Kasei]

1~My roomate has a Pictus catfish who has been acting really sick these past two days. He suddenly started swimming very slowly upside down, to the top of the tank, and then sort of falling slowly to the bottom and laying however he landed (upside down, on his side, etc) for long stretches of time. I noticed that his skin looked like it was flaking and he was off-color on one side. Today I see that what looked like flakes of skin have now swelled and look like bumps.
2~My roommate doesn't monitor her tank's ph levels or temperature, and I have no way of checking them myself.
3~ I believe it's a 30 gallon tank and it's been set up in this apartment for almost 4 years, but she's had the tank for 6.
4~Using a Penguin 200 Bio-Wheel Power Filter that filters 200 gph
5~9 fish in the tank: -1 angelfish 2.5"
-1 gourami 3"
-1 pictus catfish 3"
-2 zebra danios 1" each
-1 phantom tetra 1"
-2 skirted tetras 1" and 1.5"
-1 silver dollar, 2"
-1 plecostomus 8"
6~We change out the water by adding tap when the level gets too low and adding water conditioner. Last time it was vacuumed was a year ago and she usually takes out at least 65% of the water if not more
7~This fish is about 2 years old. We introduced him by floating him in the bag we got from the store for about an hour before release. He's never shown signs of illness until a few days ago
8~Nothing new in the tank other than a regular addition of water has been added to the tank. Every few months she adds aquarium salt to the tank to keep them healthy.
9~Tetra Min and Algae discs

I'm thinking this is probably Ich. The only reason I doubt it and want to check here is because there have been no new fish introduced to the tank in at least six months. We have not changed our care of this fish since we got him 2 years ago, nor have we changed products. I have heard that salt is supposed to help as well as changing the water. I have done both since yesterday and he seems a little better--at least he isn't floating around upside down anymore, though he is still very lethargic and I haven't seen him eat. However, I read somewhere that salt can be harmful for a scale-less fish so I'm hesitant to continue salt treatment, what do you all suggest? Should I continue salt treatment or start Ich medication?

He also still appears to be flaking and I'm wondering if fish can have allergic reactions. There's a ceramic piece in the tank that isn't technically aquarium-safe (as in we didn't buy it from the pet section of the store) and we used to notice discoloration in it so we took it out for a while though the fish did not seem harmed. We put it back in a year ago with no signs of agitation from any of the fish. I doubt if it's related but I thought I'd mention it. There is some algae in the tank but not excessive...so I'm curious as to how this disease got into the tank in the first place.

[bluerose]

Oh goodness.

Ich looks like grains of salt-- not bumps per se. Regardless the heat treatment method is safer than treating with medications (especially when you're dealing with a neglected tank).

I would start, however, by doing 10% PWCs every couple of days for a while (several weeks), because you are likely dealing with very high nitrates and possibly unstable pH-- which could be the cause of the sickness. Stop adding salt (it's really not necessary), especially not willy-nilly.

When you're not removing any water (evaporation doesn't count), all of the compounds in the water REMAIN there-- and become more concentrated. You (or roomie) need to remove and replace water to remove compounds. Hence PWCs-- weekly or, if you're lucky, biweekly. Generally one either needs a heavily planted tank or a very lightly stocked tank to get away with biweekly or fewer water changes.

Don't do a big water change right now-- a drastic shift in water chemistry (pH, GH and KH specifically, not so much ammonia/nitrite/nitrate) can kill the fish by itself. Hence my suggestion of 10% PWCs for a while. Dechlor the water and get the temp about the same, then add to the tank. I would hold off on gravel vac'ing until you've done maybe 10 10% changes, and then vac half the tank with a larger PWC... vac'ing stirs up a lot of sediment that can crash your tank. Do filter maintenance biweekly by gently rinsing the filter media in tank water (that has been removed and will be dumped); just get rid of the thick buildup that can impede water flow. No need to replace with new media unless the media is falling apart, really.

The best solution for sick fish is a) perfect water chemistry and b) treatment if necessary thereafter. 'The Solution to Pollution is Dilution'

Get a test kit-- not strips; the API Master Freshwater kit is a good one. Get back to us on pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels, and in the meantime read up on the nitrogen cycle (there are articles here that describe it) so you understand what happens in the tank to keep the fish healthy.

Good luck! and welcome to AA!

[gzeiger]

Any idea how much salt is in the tank at this point?

[Kasei]

Thank you so much for reading and responding, I'm really worried and want to get Whiskers patched up asap!

PWCs? I'm guessing that stands for Partial water changes? Sorry I'm new to all of this. What we usually do for water changes is just scoop some out with a clean bowl and replenish it with room temp. water from the tap, then adding water neutralizer. Is this an okay method, or has this made things worse?

And most of the bumps really do look like little grains of salt clinging to his sides, face, and fins. Another thing I just thought of is a few months ago one of the zebra danios developed a small red speck on the end of his fin, it almost looks like the fish equivalent of a blood blister. The fish does not seem bothered by it but it hasn't gone away. Not sure if this is another indicator of what could be wrong in the tank or if it's irrelevant, but there you go.

He does appear to be less lethargic today, though it could be due to catfishs' nocturnal nature as it is early morning. One of his smaller whiskers is broken and hanging by a string, poor thing. At least he is no longer floating listlessly and laying upside down or on his side.

I'm going to go to the store today after class and pick up a test kit; hopefully I'll be able to have those results here by tonight.

Originally Posted by gzeiger

Any idea how much salt is in the tank at this point?

Not a clue. I know she added a tablespoon the other day when we first saw signs of sickness. Since then I've added a pinch or two, though I will definitely stop since it is apparently not the right thing. I would say, seeing as how we usually only replenish water from evaporation and don't actually change out the water very often, that the salt content is fairly high.

[gzeiger]

Yes, PWC means partial water change.

It's not bad to use salt for fish in general, although catfish have a lower tolerance for it than many others (in general fish without scales lose water more readily through their skin, so salt causes them to become dehydrated). The problem here is that it sounds like you've added salt multiple times and never took any out, so all the salt you've added in the past year - since your last water change (!) - is still in there.

The water change method you described is perfectly fine, unless the tank is significantly different from room temperature. If there's no heater on it then you're good to go. If it is heated I would add the new water slowly to minimize sudden temperature changes on the fish. Natural water bodies generally don't change temperature very fast at all, so fish aren't well adapted to handle that.

Fish interact with their water through osmosis, in the case of your freshwater fish absorbing it through their skin and excreting it through their kidneys. This process is made easier or more difficult by the amount of dissolved solids in the water. Your tank is going to have a high level of solids, particularly nitrate (from fish poop) and the salt you've been adding. Water changes at this point probably should be done cautiously as bluerose said because your new water will be low in dissolved solids and will require the fish's kidneys to work harder. That's an adjustment that may require some time to make. That said, water changes are very necessary for fish health, and you do need to bring their water back to something more like clean tap water.

In future if you're adding salt only do it as part of a water change so you have some idea how much is in there.

[Kasei]

Okay I just went and got the test kit you recommended, here are the results:
Ph: 6.4
Ammonia: .25
Nitrate: 20
Nitrite: .25

I did a 10% water change earlier today and put in some Aquasafe TetraAqua brand conditioner. The catfish is acting a lot healthier since yesterday and doesn't seem to be adversely affected by the water change. The card that the kit came with indicated that the ph might be a little low and the ammonia/nitrite a little high. Any suggestions?

[bluerose]

You're not too bad off, actually.

pH being a smidge low is possibly from a lack of solids in the water that buffer it-- these get depleted if not renewed by PWCs. Don't worry about it (although if you'd like you can test your tap water; if it's not too different you can do larger PWCs as your nitrates aren't too high, although I would still only do 25% until you've replaced most of the water volume, so something like 4 or 5 PWCs).

Your ammonia and nitrite levels are a little high-- 0ppm is best. However .25ppm isn't necessarily a 'bad' number-- manageable, definitely. For a sick fish I would do PWCs to keep ammonia/nitrite at 0ppm (after a few your water chemistry should become more stable and ammonia and nitrite should stay around 0ppm by themselves).

I'm surprised your nitrates are only 20ppm; that's generally in the 'good/safe' range (the presence of nitrates indicates a cycled tank, although yours could be experiencing a mini-cycle due to the ammonia/nitrite readings). Generally nitrates need to be removed through regular PWCs to keep them in a safe range (some say up to 20ppm, some say up to 40ppm is safe).

Water changes are very rarely a bad thing-- it's like a nice breath of fresh air for the fish. Keep up on the smaller changes and you may find your fish miraculously 'healed' of his ailment.

[Kasei]

Great! So just keep up the changes every few days until it's gone? So you don't think I need to do ich treatment then? I went and bought some medication just in case (I didn't want to have to go back to the store) but I haven't used it and the guy said it had a shelf life of a few years, so if I don't need it I'll save it for another time. I noticed a few spots developing on our Angelfish this morning and am thinking it's the same thing as the catfish has got; but if you think it can be treated by PWCs then I will continue to do those for the next few weeks.

I tried to take a picture of our pictus cat to show you all for confirmation but this is the clearest picture I could get:

[bluerose]

If it is ich you'll need to treat, but you'll also need to keep your water parameters in good shape.

Be careful with the treatment-- it may not be appropriate for the catfish. A safer way to treat for ich is heat treatment; raise the temp of the tank to about 88 degrees (raising temp 1 degree every 12 hours or so) and leave it there until the ich is gone and then for two weeks AFTER all signs are gone to kill the ich. (You'll need a thermometer, preferably one that suction-cups to the inside of the tank, for this one; just seeing what the heater is set to isn't good enough as the settings tend to be less than accurate.)

[Kasei]

I got some medication that is safe for delicate/scaleless fish, or so said the guy at Petco--it's call Wardley Wellness Ick Out Sensitive. We don't have temperature control on our tank, which I guess could also be part of the problem... my roommate said she only got the freshwater tank because she was told that she didn't need to monitor temperature and ph, so that's why we're without so much of this stuff. The meds say a 50% water change is advisable 24 hours after treatment so I guess I'll do that since none of the fish appear to currently be under stress.

[Kasei]

Quick question! Not sure if anyone will reply since it is kind of an older thread, but here I go!

So I've been treating the tank steadily these past couple of weeks and so far so good (I think). The fish haven't shown any signs of stress and appear very active. The ick has disappeared from the catfish and his scaley patches are healing. There's still a persistant fleck of something clinging to the side of the anglefish but I can't tell if it's ick or the fish equivalent of a scab. It's remained while all the other spots of ick have vanished and so my question is should I continue treatment? I haven't seen any spots on either of them in two treatments other than that one spot that won't go away on the anglefish.

What do you think? Cured or no?