problems with new cardinals

[afishianto]

Hi everyone:

I am not new to the fish keeping hobby but lately I am mystified. I bought 10 cardinals and quarintined for 2 weeks. When I quaratine, I usually put in a little stress guard and a cup of the tank water that they will eventually go into, I found out years ago that doing that increased the survival rate of my quaratined fish. Of course, I make sure my parameters are healthy. After 2 weeks, I popped them into the new tank. Can you guess? in 2 days, the tank exploded with ICK and I lost all my established (24) cardinals and 9 of the new batch. A few weeks later, I tried again. Same thing - except they were in the Q tank for 3 weeks - I got 4 survivors. This has only been happening this year - prior to that, I never seem to have a problem with cardinals. Now, Im really paranoid...Am I doing something wrong? They are in a 20g Q tank, ph is 7, temp is 78 and ammonia/bacteria is zero. I do weekly water changes in which I put in a cup of tank water as well. This practice has proven to be a good thing - except for the two incidence of cardinals! I really love that fish and I dont want to give up so Im not buying them for awhile. Does anyone else have this problem? Does anyone have suggestions or can tell me if Im doing something wrong?
Thanks for your help!

 

[ashleynicole]

Maybe the ich is in your main tank? What have you done to treat the ich? Raise your temps to about 86 for two weeks in the main tank and eradicate all of the ich.

Also you said ammonia and bacteria are at zero? Was that a typo? I am sure you mean ammonia and nitrite. bacteria are a necessity. Can you post your exact water parameters?

 

[afishianto]

Cardinal problem

I don't believe the ick was in the main tank - of course, once I put the cardinals in it and they all got ick - the whole tank was infested. I fished out all the fish and left the main tank empty for a week which would have killed off the ick. I put the infected fish into two 20g q tanks and hiked the temp to 90. I performed 100% water changes every other day until the ick was gone. It took approx a week and a half. Then I put the survivors back into the main tank and bought ten more cardinals which I promptly quarantined in a separate 20g tank. They were fine for a week. I was too paranoid to put them into the main tank at that point and decided to wait one more week. Sure enough, another ick outbreak. Fortunately, i had not put the fish into the main tank yet so the outbreak was limited to the new fish in the q tank. Yes, I meant nitrates - thank you. Main tank is now fine with four surviving cardinals. Q tank is infected - got 6 left. Right now parameters (qtank): water temp is 87, ph is 6.8, ammonia and nitrates are zero. Got a cup of main tank water and stress guard to boot. Doing 100% water changes every other day. I think I'm doing everything right about getting rid of the ick, but why do my new cardinals seem to get it every time? This is such a pain the u know what plus I'm just so bummed that I've lost these beautiful fish - I'd like to know what happened before I buy anymore.

 

[ashleynicole]

One week is not long enough to erradicate the ich. Two weeks minimum is needed. And just because you removed the fish doesn't mean it will die. It can survive in spore form if your temps aren't high enough.

 

[barterking85]

I don't believe the ick was in the main tank - of course, once I put the cardinals in it and they all got ick - the whole tank was infested. I fished out all the fish and left the main tank empty for a week which would have killed off the ick. I put the infected fish into two 20g q tanks and hiked the temp to 90. I performed 100% water changes every other day until the ick was gone. It took approx a week and a half. Then I put the survivors back into the main tank and bought ten more cardinals which I promptly quarantined in a separate 20g tank. They were fine for a week. I was too paranoid to put them into the main tank at that point and decided to wait one more week. Sure enough, another ick outbreak. Fortunately, i had not put the fish into the main tank yet so the outbreak was limited to the new fish in the q tank. Yes, I meant nitrates - thank you. Main tank is now fine with four surviving cardinals. Q tank is infected - got 6 left. Right now parameters (qtank): water temp is 87, ph is 6.8, ammonia and nitrates are zero. Got a cup of main tank water and stress guard to boot. Doing 100% water changes every other day. I think I'm doing everything right about getting rid of the ick, but why do my new cardinals seem to get it every time? This is such a pain the u know what plus I'm just so bummed that I've lost these beautiful fish - I'd like to know what happened before I buy anymore.

Unless you emptied and dried out the tank it's still there but ick is still present in every tank it just waits till your fish are sick or stressed to attack

Only thing I can suggest is to qt for 40 days buy that time any sickness will be noticeable but if something happens at day 39 start over

 

[afishianto]

Hmm. All my books tell me that the lifecycle of the ick is 48 hrs. Once it hatches in the tank, it has 48 hrs to grab onto a living host or it dies. Is at not true? I figured a week of empty tank would have killed off the ick. I know that it exists in all aquariums but that healthy fish can fight it off. Once the ick is physically present, the cycle of latching onto the fish, dropping to the bottom of the tank and hatching out to grab another host is 48 hrs. Of course, your explanation that it is still present in the qtank and main tank would account for repeating occurrence. My main tank is still ick free. I think my q tank sick free but I will soap it down before I use it again. My book also tell me that high temps don't kill ick - it just speeds up the life cycle so that it drops off the fish sooner which in turn makes it vulnerable to medication. Granted, my books aren't the most recent but can you tell me what's wrong with my reasoning? Is my thinking outdated? Thanks again.

 

[ashleynicole]

Temps above 86 kill ich. It is a parasite and it takes up to two weeks to erradicate. The speed of the lifecyle does depend on temperature but it can take up to two weeks. You wont see it at all in your tank as it is microscopic. You see it on the fish because it festers and the tissue and slime builds up around it.

I don't believe it is always present. That would be like saying your cat always has worms. That's ludicrous. It's a parasite and if you get rid of it and QT all new fish for two weeks you can prevent reinfestation.

 

[barterking85]

Temps above 86 kill ich. It is a parasite and it takes up to two weeks to erradicate. The speed of the lifecyle does depend on temperature but it can take up to two weeks. You wont see it at all in your tank as it is microscopic. You see it on the fish because it festers and the tissue and slime builds up around it.

I don't believe it is always present. That would be like saying your cat always has worms. That's ludicrous. It's a parasite and if you get rid of it and QT all new fish for two weeks you can prevent reinfestation.

Well that's my two cents take it or leave it but all my tanks are healthy

 

[LyndaB]

I don't believe it is always present. That would be like saying your cat always has worms. That's ludicrous.

I just wanted to add that I've heard this too, on multiple forums. Kind of like humans all are born with cancer cells but it's whether or not those cells get turned "on", for lack of a better way to describe it.

Can't say if either of the above is true, however, did want to add that the OP is not the only one who's heard it before.

 

[barterking85]

Yeah it's in a couple of my fish keeping books

 

[BillD]

I would suggest that perhaps you should stop adding tank water to the quarantine tank. Sounds like you may have introduced it to the Q tank from the main. I, for one, believe if you eradicate ich, and don't add any more, you do not have ich present in your tanks. I haven't seen a case of ich since 92 when I got back into the hobby. My tanks are all different temps, with a variety of fish.

 

[ashleynicole]

I just wanted to add that I've heard this too, on multiple forums. Kind of like humans all are born with cancer cells but it's whether or not those cells get turned "on", for lack of a better way to describe it.

Can't say if either of the above is true, however, did want to add that the OP is not the only one who's heard it before.

If you look at studies it is merely an opinion that it is always present. Not a fact. It is a living parasite and can be killed. You fill a bucket with water, ich is not in it. You fill a tank with water, ich is not in it. You introduce it from contaminated fish, plants, etc. While its true a stronger immune system may fight it better and not show sighns sometimes so it can be present and not visible.

As far as humans always having cancer cells arising that the immune system takes care of, that is also debatable in the medical community and is not comparable to a parasitic organism. (I am a Registered Nurse).

 

[LyndaB]

That's not quite what I was saying, but I might not have explained it well. What I'd heard is that the ich is present within the fish, not in a bucket of water or in the tank itself.

As to how that may or may not actually be the case, I'm not a biologist and I don't play one on tv either so......

 

[barterking85]

I've seen it published in a couple of books I have but who knows if it's creditable or not

 

[ashleynicole]

That's not quite what I was saying, but I might not have explained it well. What I'd heard is that the ich is present within the fish, not in a bucket of water or in the tank itself.

As to how that may or may not actually be the case, I'm not a biologist and I don't play one on tv either so......

That would be like saying we are all carriers of tape worm, head lice, or another number of parasites. Ich is a parasite, not a bacteria ot a virus.

Now people can be carriers of certain bacteria and viruses and not show symptoms. People can be carriers of MRSA and not have an infection, and another person can die with a MRSA infection. (methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus). Again, this is bacteria, not ich and ich is a parasite not a bacteria or a virus.

When I get home I will try to see if I can find a reputable reference. I doubt the CDC would have info on this since its not a human pathogen.

 

[ashleynicole]

Ichthyophthirius Multifiliis

I think this is a legit source:
And it states that the parasite can not live without fish present.
CIR920/FA006: Ichthyophthirius Multifiliis (White Spot) Infections in Fish

Ichthyophthirius Multifiliis (White Spot) Infections in Fish 1

Ruth Francis-Floyd and Peggy Reed2

Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is a ciliated protozoan which causes "Ich" or "white spot disease." This disease is a major problem to aquarists and commercial fish producers world wide. Ichthyophthirius is an important disease of tropical fish, goldfish, and food fish. The disease is highly contagious and spreads rapidly from one fish to another. It can be particularly severe when fish are crowded. While many protozoans reproduce by simple division, a single "Ich" organism can multiply into hundreds of new parasites. This organism is an obligate parasite which means that it cannot survive unless live fish are present. It is capable of causing massive mortality within a short time. An outbreak of "Ich" is an emergency situation which requires immediate treatment: if left untreated, this disease may result in 100% mortality.
The Parasite

• Topics: Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences (SFRC) | Fish Diseases | Francis-Floyd, Ruth | Reed, Peggy A

Ichthyophthirius Multifiliis (White Spot) Infections in Fish 1

Ruth Francis-Floyd and Peggy Reed2

Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is a ciliated protozoan which causes "Ich" or "white spot disease." This disease is a major problem to aquarists and commercial fish producers world wide. Ichthyophthirius is an important disease of tropical fish, goldfish, and food fish. The disease is highly contagious and spreads rapidly from one fish to another. It can be particularly severe when fish are crowded. While many protozoans reproduce by simple division, a single "Ich" organism can multiply into hundreds of new parasites. This organism is an obligate parasite which means that it cannot survive unless live fish are present. It is capable of causing massive mortality within a short time. An outbreak of "Ich" is an emergency situation which requires immediate treatment: if left untreated, this disease may result in 100% mortality.
The Parasite

"Ich" is the largest known parasitic protozoan found on fishes. Adult organisms are oval to round and measure 0.5 to 1.0 mm in size. The adult is uniformly ciliated and contains a horseshoe-shaped nucleus which can be seen in older individuals.

Figure 1.
The breeding stage of the parasite encysts between the layers of the host skin. When mature, it leaves the fish and produces large numbers of free swimming young. These must find a host within 48 hours (at water temperatures of 75-79°F) or they will die. The life cycle of "Ich" is shown in Figure 1 .

 

[ashleynicole]

Oh, here is another really good excerpt from the article regarding heat treatment!

Special Considerations for Treatment of Pet Fish

Pet fish can be treated with any of the chemicals discussed above to correct "Ich" infections. A number of commercial preparations are available from pet stores which contain one or several of these agents. Temperature manipulation is also an effective way to control "Ich" in home aquariums. This technique is often not practical for commercial fish farms, but is advantageous for the hobbyist because expensive products do not have to be purchased and it is safer for some of the delicate species which are popular in community tanks. Water temperature can be gradually raised to 90°F, maintained there for 24 hours, and then gradually dropped to 70°F for 48 hours. The infective juveniles (tomites) will be killed while the water temperature is at 90°. When the temperature is dropped the adult organisms will fall off the fish and begin to reproduce. As the young begin to emerge 48 hours later, the temperature is again raised to 90°F, causing them to die. Repeating this process continuously (24 hours at 90° F followed by 48 hours at 70° F) for two weeks should control the disease. Cleaning the tank every second day will help remove cysts before they rupture and therefore help to prevent completion of the life cycle. If you decide to use temperature to control "Ich" in your home aquarium be sure that the type of fish in your tank can tolerate the temperature extremes involved.




Summary

"Ich" is a protozoan parasite with the scientific name of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis . It is easily introduced into a fish pond, tank, or home aquarium by new fish or equipment which has been moved from one fish-holding unit to another. Quarantine is an effective way of preventing this disease. Once the organism gets into a large fish culture facility, it is difficult to control due to its fast reproductive cycle and its unique life stages. If not controlled, 100% mortality of fish can be expected. With careful treatment, the disease can be controlled, but the cost will be high, both in terms of lost fish, labor, and the cost of chemicals.
In contrast to most parasitic diseases, where the decision to treat (or not to treat) is based on the degree of infestation and other factors, fish infected with "Ich" (even if only one parasite is seen) should always be treated immediately. This organism can only survive if live fish are present for completion of its life cycle. It can cause massive mortality of fish within a short time. In severe cases, control may be impossible. A single treatment is not sufficient for this disease, as the encysted stage is resistant to chemicals. Repeating the selected treatment will disrupt the life cycle and control the outbreak. Daily cleaning of the tank is also beneficial, as the encysted forms are physically removed from the environment. Ichthyophthirius multifiliis is a common parasite which can cause catastrophic loss in aquaculture facilities. Careful attention to management practices, such as quarantine and multiple treatments when outbreaks occur, will minimize economic loss from this disease.

 

[afishianto]

Aha! So I was partly right - the free swimming young have to find a living host in 48 hrs or die. The juveniles can be killed off with high temps as well as the adults but the process takes approx two weeks. Got it. Thank you all.
Btw, I'm currently taking a biology course and were studying cancer. It turns out that cancer occurs as a result of a build up of mutations in cell division. Our cells a constantly dying and being replaced with new cells with cell division occurring hundreds of thousands of times daily. At that rate, there a bound to be a few mistakes or mutations. Cancer happens when there is an accumulation of mutations - the cells responsible for repairing DNA are damaged and they either are unable to turn off - meaning the cell continues to divide uncontrollably - or the cell damage is never repaired to begin with because the repair cells are damaged. Interesting and scary too.
Anyway, I appreciate your input!

 

[ashleynicole]

Right its only the freeswimming form that dies without a host, that's why you have to treat for about two weeks, just to be sure its all erradicated.

 

[LyndaB]

You should see if the mods will make the ich thing a sticky.