Red Cap Oranda with a list of problems

[Verity]

Hi Im really in need of help

If you like you can cut straight down to 'The problems'
below is basically the last few weeks, just incase it helps in any way with diagnosis.

I Have a little Red Cap Oranda S/he is just over 2 inches in size, and have owened her since Oct 30th of this year.
Since owning her shes seemed a bit lethargic which was odd as she was happy and active in the tank at the Aquarium shop I got her from.
Did lots of water tests and all came back fine. and she seems perfectly healthy on the outside.
When i would stick my hand in the water and would come swimming over and weave through my fingers and seems perfectly happy. So I decided to get her a little friend.
When I was younger I had a Blackmore, and thought it would be nice to own one again, did a bit of research and thought it would be fine to have the two together.



At first they were great together, the Blackmore made the red cap way more active and they have happily been swimming around together.

'The Problems' Begin.



The Begining of the week - I noticed a small patch of Red on her tail. i did some googerling and decided it must be Amonia Poisioning. tested the water, and it came back fine in every way.
But it was Monday which is when I normally do my 25% water change.

Wednesday - I noticed the red had begun to spread Slightly, and becoming slightly Lethargic again.

Thursday - I noticed three little white spots on her. I had experienced Ich with my tropical tank last year and still had the medicine in the cobard.
checked the exspire date (still fine) and read all the info again, thought about it for a little while, then put in the desired amount.

Friday- Sat in the corner by the filter. not swimming over when I went over to the tank like she normally does. (Blackmore still happy, following me around the room, and still eating)

Sat- Put in the medicine again (it says to put in every 48 hours)

Sun- All still the same (still sat not doing anything, not eating) Did water check, all still fine in the tank except the Nitrate is higher then normal, just gone into the danger zone according to my test.

Monday- Got up today to frind her floating at the top of the tank
when I went over she started to move, and has been struggerling for the last Half hour (since I found her) to go down, she can manage it, but it takes a lot of effort, and she keeps loosing balance.
Did my Monday water change and everything still the same but the Nirate from the day before went down slightly, but still to high for my liking.

took some water to a local brand pet shop (the aquarium shop is shut on mondays) who tested the water, they showed me their results and everything came back fine, but the chap said my GH was slightly high
this made me even more confused


Help!

1) Is the red on her Tail Amonia poisoning? how do i get rid of this? Ive read you can buy something?
The tank was set up about 2 months before I got the red cap.
The filter was new but I used the sponge from my trop tank, as it was well matured. -should i not use trop sponge in a goldfish tank?!
The tank is over 23 gallons so should be alright for two small goldfish right? at least for now.

2) Why is she floating? am I two late?
Ive read when fish float to feed them peas and such, but shes not eating at all, just turns from me, (she used to eat from my fingers)

3) I just read the Ich article on this forum and found it very useful. i am going to start turning the heat up and adding aquarium salt.
but if she has got amonia poisoning will this effect her? should i do water changes or add anything to treat this as well?

Any Help would be much appriciated as im so worried about her

[dkpate]

I wouldn't turn the temp up too much with the goldies, especially up to 86*.

I hope JSoong sees this and tries to help you, since he is our resident goldfish expert.
Good luck, they are so cute! Black moors are one of my favorites!

[Verity]

okie dokie, Thank you!! so maybe chemical medicine is the way to go?

as a minor update. the red cap has pretty much stopped floating at the top of the tank and is now mainly at the bottom/half way.

at one point though she was completely face down (tail up in the air) up against the corner of the tank.

I think maybe the red in the tail is slightly better. but that maybe hopeful thinking.

please someone help. I really love that little fish.

[dkpate]

Well, since alot of goldfish kind of have a smushed body, they get back up easily, which causes swim bladder issues, and as you know, the peas will help with that. Does she ever scavenge on the bottom of the tank? If so, drop some pieces of boiled, shelled pea in there, and see if she will eat them off of the bottom.
If that doesn't work, you can try salt, and do 1 tsp per gallon, dissolving it in a different container first. Salt does not evaporate, so you will have to manually remove it by doing partial water changes.
What is your water changing schedule? What are your water readings (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH)?

[Verity]

She's not really been eating the last few days. I've caught her occasionally struggling down to the bottom and picking bits up but not much.
Normally when I feed he she'll wait until the food drops to her height and grabs in then. Then the blackmore scoops up what sits on the bottom. Other times she'll eat from my fingers if I hold some food under the water. currently though she turns away.

I will get some peas today and try that out!
. . .

I normally do a 25% water change every Monday Morning using a syphon

(Im not sure if every test ueses the same number as when Ive looked into correct amounts for GH and KH and such, people have written in numbers such as 4-12 where as much test goes 0,50, 125 and so on :S
i normally go by the colour of the numbers (eg green good red bad) and whats explained in the booklet)

when Ive tested the water the last few days its always come back pretty much the same as below...

Nitrite - 0
Nirtrate - 25
GH - 250
kh - 100/180
PH - 7.6
Amonia - 0

...except when i had the pet shop test the water they said everything was fine except GH was too high.

im pretty sure my nirtrate is toooo high, ive just added some moss balls and another plant to that tank if that should help?

also with the GH should i add a bit of distilled water to lower it?

[dkpate]

I am not sure how to change the GH, since I have never had that issue.
As for the nirates, you are fine with 25, anything over 40 is getting too high. I like to keep mine at 5-10, and if they get higher, I clean the filter media and do a gravel vac. Rinse the filter media in old tank water to clean it, no need to change it all out unless it's falling apart.

[Verity]

Sadly I got up this morning to find my little red cap dead
Thank you dkpate for all your help. Was very much appriciated!

[Mark Hewitt]

Originally Posted by Verity

1) Is the red on her Tail Amonia poisoning? how do i get rid of this? Ive read you can buy something?

How come you think it might be ammonia poisoning? I though you'd had your water tested? If so the test should include ammonia.

[Verity]

When it first appeared I spent ages on the net trying to find what it was. i found videos on youtube with some red caps looking exactly the same who were diagnosed with amonia poisioning. googled it and found yahoo answers and things like that, and looked on other forums for the symptons. ( though I also asked on another forum and someone suggested Paracites. which is why I asked if thats what you guys thoght it was)

I was a bit suprised with regards to the amonia as the tank is big enough for both fish, excess food is removed, and I never miss the weekly 25% water change.
So I would have thought the amonia would be alright.

I tested the water and it came back fine. But I use a little paper stick set, which ive heard arn't great at giving an accurate reading, and that there are other water testing kits which are better, which is why I went to the pet shop. But they too used the same kit!
so im still left quite confused as to what was wrong with her.

...infact all they could say to me was that as the water is fine and the blackmore is fine, i must just have had a dodgey fish. but i still cant help but feels its my fault and that i wasnt doing something right

[dkpate]

Awww, sorry about your fishy!
Try to get yourself a liquid test kit, and then check the water parameters, the results might surprise you.
She could have had internal parasites, which are kind of hard to diagnose, since there are so many symptoms, and sometimes not any symptoms until they are stressed out.

[glassbird]

If your pet shop is using dip sticks to test water, do not bother getting your water tested there! That does not say much for the business. Get yourself the API master test kit. Much more economical in the long run, and accurate.

[Verity]

Yeah I was really suprised when the guy came out the back with a tester stick in his hand!
It's one of those large pet brand stores, they are all pretty sensible there and take buying animals seriously, but I guess they just arnt as clued up as a more focused shop.

I would normally go to the Quarirum shop where i buy my fish, im sure they would at least use the proper kits but they were shut on the monday and i never made it over there after.

Going to try and take a trip over there today with some water and have them test it. The blackmore seems perfectly ok, but i want to make sure that the same thing doesnt happen again.

will deffinatly be getting one of those kits! thank you!

[Verity]

UPDATE:

Took some water down to the local Aquarium shop.
Explained to the girl everything I explained to you guys and gave her a water sample. She tested the water, with a proper kit, and everything was fine. So she grabbed Clive (owner of the shop) and Dawn (his wife) came in with the dogs. I know them both through my boyfriend so was really happy to have them help me out.

They asked if the red caps scales has pineconed which they hadn't,
I said the main thing was red tail and lethargicness.

so they suggested stress. for what reason were still not 100% sure.

They suggested:

Lonely - hopefully not as thats why i got the blackmore

Picked on by the other fish - If anything she follows the blackmore
around and sticked her face up the blackmores tail.

water quality - Everything seemed ok

Contaminants (hairspray, perfume, airfreshner) - the tank is on the opposite end of my room. but still a possiblily as of course that stuff travels in the air.


Anyway. they gave me some Anti Internal Bacteria. as I said I was worried about my Blackmore becoming ill.
which I am ment to put in with some aquarium salt.
so hopefully everything will be ok *fingers crossed*
and I can put my mind to rest slightly.

though I still really miss my little red cap