Red gills on cichlid, but no ammonia

[katepost28]

This is my first thread so please bare with me.

1~What type of fish is afflicted?
My blood parrot cichlid has been acting lethargic for about a week. He has not eaten in two days. He ignores his food. His gills are blood red. He also hides at the top by the filter more so than usual.

2~What are your tank parameters (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, temp, pH)? Ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are all at 0. This worries me that the API master test kit I have is not functioning. pH is 7.8.

3~ How large is the tank? How long has the tank been set up?
The tank is 20 gall. I have had it set up for 2 months. I did not add the fish until after the first month when I was sure the filter was working and the nitrogen cycle had started.

4~What type of filtration are you using? Please give the name and number (i.e. Fluval 304) and amount of gph if known.
I have a Fluval U2 underwater filter. It's GPH is 105 gallon. I've been using it for two weeks. Prior to that I had a Fluval Aquaclear but it rattled ridiculously and I exchanged it for the U2.

5~How many fish are in the tank? What kinds of fish are they and what are their current sizes?
I have one blood parrot cichlid. He's the only fish and will be the only one. He's a little less than 2in in length.

6~When is the last time you did a water change and vacuum the gravel? How often do you do this? How much water do you remove at a time?
I do water changes weekly. I did the last one Thursday. I did a 25% change.

7~How long have you had the fish? If the fish is new, how did you acclimate it/them? I have had the fish for a month.

8~Have you added anything new to the tank--decor, new dechlorinator, new substrate, etc.? No.

9~What kind of food have you been feeding your fish, have you changed their diet recently? I haven't changed his diet. I feed him Hikari cichlid gold.

I'm very concerned for my little guy. I recently lost the blood parrot I had for 10 years. He was very special to me. I'm now worried I'm going to lose this one. He acted a bit erratic and flighty when I first got him but the blood red gills is what worries me. I am using the API kit but no ammonia or anything has shown up. I don't see any parasites on him. I want to help him but I cannot figure out what's wrong with him.

 

[Delapool]

Hi, welcome to AA

It does sound strange. Is the test kit still in date (just in case).

Are you able to take a water sample down to the lfs to check?

My thought would water chemistry to check first. The nitrates at 0 sounds strange.

Also have you tested the tap water used for water changes before? You could check this and see if you get any readings. My tap water has a tad amount of nitrates in it.

 

[Jessy2363]

Okay, red gills is generally a bacterial infection known as bacterial gill disease. You can't cure it with just clean water and you will need antibiotics. Do a salt dip also to get rid of any parasites that could be causing the gills to inflame. Could be flukes. Therefore the infection is a secondary bacterial infection. Mean you will need to treat for parasites and bacteria. You can go to the beach, get some salt water and dip the fish in the saline solution for 30 seconds up to 30 min but take it out if the fish rolls over. This will get rid of almost all of the parasites attached to the gills and hopefully any that have dug deep into the tissue.

Once you've done that get antibiotics straight away to kill the bacteria. Because we don't know the strain of bacteria and whether it is gram negative or positive you need a broad spectrum one. I always use seachem Kanaplex and API Furan 2 combined because they are incredibly powerful together and kill columnaris which is the most deadly and difficult to treat of MOST fish bacterial infections. seachem sulfathiazole is also great.

Do the daily salt dips to keep whatever parasite/s is irritating its gills under controll to prevent it from happening again.

I personally found for parasites tetra parasite guard to be the best for some reason. The combination of meds it uses targets a HUGE range of parasties, both internal and external.

Also seachem paraguard could be used but it is much more gentle. Often when fish are sick it's not just bacterial or parasitic. It's usually both. Often parasites attack first and if you're quick enough to notice then there is no bacterial infection to follow. However in the gills you can't often see parasites as they are microscopic therefore you're stuck treating both.

 

[katepost28]

I'm hopefully going to the pet store today to have them check the water. I have been testing the city water occasionally hoping the pH won't be as extreme. My water is pretty hard, over 200ppm. I've seen a little ammonia in the city water, 0.25 ppm but no nitrates. I wonder if the chemicals were improperly prepared.




For the infection, I'm assuming it could be and infection if my kit is correct, should I make my own salt water or should I use some salt water from the pet store? I'm very far from any ocean. Is it safe to use an antibiotic and anti-parasitic together or should I finish one and begin the other?

 

[Jessy2363]

I'm hopefully going to the pet store today to have them check the water. I have been testing the city water occasionally hoping the pH won't be as extreme. My water is pretty hard, over 200ppm. I've seen a little ammonia in the city water, 0.25 ppm but no nitrates. I wonder if the chemicals were improperly prepared.




For the infection, I'm assuming it could be and infection if my kit is correct, should I make my own salt water or should I use some salt water from the pet store? I'm very far from any ocean. Is it safe to use an antibiotic and anti-parasitic together or should I finish one and begin the other?

Whether your kit is correct or incorrect it is definitely an infection as red gills indicates infection that has gone way out of control, enough to redden the gills. When a fish's gills get attacks they cannot get the oxygen in the water into their blood which means they slowly suffocate because a fish use's its gill to breath. Therefore with this problem you need to move fast because once its gills stop working the fish generally dies. Get those antibiotics fast. Any broad spectrum ones if you can't find furan 2 and kanaplex to combine. Most fish diseases are gram negative, however you can't really know unless you're a scientist with a microscope. If you can't get antibiotics for some reason then use Methylene blue but as a long term 1 week treatment. Don't use it in your display tank as it will stain your tank seals and destroy your filter bed of good bacteria. Change at least 50% of its water daily in the quarantine as there's no filter and ammonia only needs a day to build up without a filter and a tiny bit of uneaten food.

With the salt dip you can make your own. Here's dosage of salt
Dip is 30 sec to 10 min depending on whether the fish can cope. If it rolls over take it out. Or wait 30 seconds just to make it worth while. The fish won't die in 30 seconds unless it's literally on deaths bed.
For a 3% salt solution (same as the seawater) 22.5 Level Teaspoons per US gallon. Dissolve it first. That's why i recommended going to the sea as it's cheaper than buying that much salt.

Another good thing about meth blue is it oxidises the blood oddly enough so air stones are not as important in quarantine when using meth blue.

 

[katepost28]

Whether your kit is correct or incorrect it is definitely an infection as red gills indicates infection that has gone way out of control, enough to redden the gills. When a fish's gills get attacks they cannot get the oxygen in the water into their blood which means they slowly suffocate because a fish use's its gill to breath. Therefore with this problem you need to move fast because once its gills stop working the fish generally dies. Get those antibiotics fast. Any broad spectrum ones if you can't find furan 2 and kanaplex to combine. Most fish diseases are gram negative, however you can't really know unless you're a scientist with a microscope. If you can't get antibiotics for some reason then use Methylene blue but as a long term 1 week treatment. Don't use it in your display tank as it will stain your tank seals and destroy your filter bed of good bacteria. Change at least 50% of its water daily in the quarantine as there's no filter and ammonia only needs a day to build up without a filter and a tiny bit of uneaten food.

With the salt dip you can make your own. Here's dosage of salt
Dip is 30 sec to 10 min depending on whether the fish can cope. If it rolls over take it out. Or wait 30 seconds just to make it worth while. The fish won't die in 30 seconds unless it's literally on deaths bed.
For a 3% salt solution (same as the seawater) 22.5 Level Teaspoons per US gallon. Dissolve it first. That's why i recommended going to the sea as it's cheaper than buying that much salt.

Another good thing about meth blue is it oxidises the blood oddly enough so air stones are not as important in quarantine when using meth blue.

Fortunately, my lfs had some Furan-2 in stock along with the parasite medicine. I was able to order some kanaplex to be overnighted. I tried the salt too. He's a little more active now and some of his color has come back. I'm worried about the oxygen content of the water with the antibiotic. I don't have a bubbler but my U2 does have a venturi valve. I have that on. I'm really hoping he'll pull through. Here's a picture of him doing a little better. I can't thank you enough.

 

[Jessy2363]

aww that's to cute in the little cup. yeah i'm not entirely sure about oxygen content etc. If you are keeping up water changes every second day that adds oxygen to the water. If you have a filter that has an outlet that hits the water from the top as to make a splash then that can add oxygen as it breaks the top of the water. Any agitation on top of the water lets oxygen in.

If you can't get kanaplex then furan 2 may be enough on its own and you can save your money or use the kanaplex for a different emergency. You need the kanaplex if the infection has gone internal as it is very water soluble. But perhaps it is localised to the gills. Who knows. It's all guess work with fish. But be sure to do the full duration of the antibiotics even if he seems fully recovered and even go a day longer than it says on the box as bacteria can bounce back even worse than ever. They say 4 days for furan 2 and 6 for kanaplex but they are covering their backsides just incase the fish has liver or kidney failure which is unlikely. Longer then better with antibiotics if your fish is in a real bad state.

 

[katepost28]

That's his favorite little hidey hole. Before I gave him the medicine, he wouldn't even come up to the top of the jug to peak out at me. Even though I've only had him about a month, he's very interactive with me.


I'll definitely be sure the use all the antibiotics. I'm really hoping I wasn't too late. I've never had much luck with fish. I was so upset to see him sick after he'd been doing so well. I really care for the little guy.

 

[Delapool]

I'm hopefully going to the pet store today to have them check the water. I have been testing the city water occasionally hoping the pH won't be as extreme. My water is pretty hard, over 200ppm. I've seen a little ammonia in the city water, 0.25 ppm but no nitrates. I wonder if the chemicals were improperly prepared.




For the infection, I'm assuming it could be and infection if my kit is correct, should I make my own salt water or should I use some salt water from the pet store? I'm very far from any ocean. Is it safe to use an antibiotic and anti-parasitic together or should I finish one and begin the other?

Just odd to get ammonia in tap water. Here the tap water runs always at 0 for ammonia so something is off there but hard to tell without a base line reading. Usually I will test every 4 months, particularly as the seasons change.

 

[Delapool]

Fortunately, my lfs had some Furan-2 in stock along with the parasite medicine. I was able to order some kanaplex to be overnighted. I tried the salt too. He's a little more active now and some of his color has come back. I'm worried about the oxygen content of the water with the antibiotic. I don't have a bubbler but my U2 does have a venturi valve. I have that on. I'm really hoping he'll pull through. Here's a picture of him doing a little better. I can't thank you enough.

Just a quick thought - does your U2 have carbon in it? My u4 has the carbon on filter sponge. It doesn't do much after a few months but if you replace yours regularly and does have the carbon, may strip some meds out.

 

[katepost28]

Just a quick thought - does your U2 have carbon in it? My u4 has the carbon on filter sponge. It doesn't do much after a few months but if you replace yours regularly and does have the carbon, may strip some meds out.

Yeah, it has the carbon. I did take those out. I took everything out including the little bio chunks since it said the antibiotics would kill it. I have them sitting in old aquarium water. Do you think I should just replace it all? I was worried about it holding the infectious stuff in it.

About the city water, I have no idea why ammonia was in it. I tested it one day and a few days later just to see if the pH was still high and the ammonia was still 0.25 straight out of the tap. My city is on a river and the pipes are extremely old. We had a really nice new purification system but the people accidentally added chlorine to it and ruined it. There's always water breaks. Sometimes the water is blood red. Other times it's got a blue tint. I really wonder about its safety sometimes. Haha. I should keep testing it to see if it changes.

 

[Delapool]

Yeah, it has the carbon. I did take those out. I took everything out including the little bio chunks since it said the antibiotics would kill it. I have them sitting in old aquarium water. Do you think I should just replace it all? I was worried about it holding the infectious stuff in it.



About the city water, I have no idea why ammonia was in it. I tested it one day and a few days later just to see if the pH was still high and the ammonia was still 0.25 straight out of the tap. My city is on a river and the pipes are extremely old. We had a really nice new purification system but the people accidentally added chlorine to it and ruined it. There's always water breaks. Sometimes the water is blood red. Other times it's got a blue tint. I really wonder about its safety sometimes. Haha. I should keep testing it to see if it changes.

What bio media filtration do you have left running? My experience has been the nitrifying bacteria can be impacted either not at all or slowly. However I've seen other threads where the ammonia spikes straight away, from memory on tanks that were a little unstable to start with (eg new).

But the ammonia needs to be kept down so I just leave the bio media in and keep testing ammonia. I only remove the carbon (if using) for any treatment since no matter what caused this the tank still needs to be kept as stable as possible so as not to introduce extra stress imo. Same with a QT. My QT is hopeless over summer when it gets really hot as I can't keep the temp where I want it and it's just not ideal.

Most of the time, the infection is in the water so I've never seen the point of replacing all the media as it won't remove the infection and may cause a tank mini-cycle. My thoughts anyways.

Yikes on the water!

 

[katepost28]

What bio media filtration do you have left running? My experience has been the nitrifying bacteria can be impacted either not at all or slowly. However I've seen other threads where the ammonia spikes straight away, from memory on tanks that were a little unstable to start with (eg new).

But the ammonia needs to be kept down so I just leave the bio media in and keep testing ammonia. I only remove the carbon (if using) for any treatment since no matter what caused this the tank still needs to be kept as stable as possible so as not to introduce extra stress imo. Same with a QT. My QT is hopeless over summer when it gets really hot as I can't keep the temp where I want it and it's just not ideal.

Most of the time, the infection is in the water so I've never seen the point of replacing all the media as it won't remove the infection and may cause a tank mini-cycle. My thoughts anyways.

Yikes on the water!

I'm using the Fluval BioMax. My tank is relatively new, only 2 1/2 months. Thankfully no ammonia spike today, phew! Tomorrow, I'll be changing out 25% of the water as the medicine directs anyway. What you're saying makes a lot of sense though. I worry too much and over analyze things. Peaches does look a tad better today. He's got a few stress spots on his tail now though. He got a few on a fin when I first brought him home. I was afraid he had black spot at first. The redness in his gills has gone down a little.

The only good thing about my crazy water is it's a hard enough to make a cichlid happy. Haha.

 

[Delapool]

Did you end up getting the nitrates tested at a lfs?

Ammonia seems like at least it gets a reading (on tap) and ph sounds fine.

Cycling a tank requires an ammonia source to build up nitrifying bacteria so I'm wondering if the tank was doing much for the first month.

However as tank is running 0 ammonia, it sounds like the cycle is running (normally I find 2 to 8 weeks to establish) soooo it sounds like nitrates should be there.

A really large water change schedule or heavily planted could keep nitrates down. Best I've ever managed is 5ppm nitrate and tank is normally 20 to 40ppm. What sort of water change schedule to you have (percentage, timing)?

 

[katepost28]

Did you end up getting the nitrates tested at a lfs?

Ammonia seems like at least it gets a reading (on tap) and ph sounds fine.

Cycling a tank requires an ammonia source to build up nitrifying bacteria so I'm wondering if the tank was doing much for the first month.

However as tank is running 0 ammonia, it sounds like the cycle is running (normally I find 2 to 8 weeks to establish) soooo it sounds like nitrates should be there.

A really large water change schedule or heavily planted could keep nitrates down. Best I've ever managed is 5ppm nitrate and tank is normally 20 to 40ppm. What sort of water change schedule to you have (percentage, timing)?

Lfs said nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia were all at 0. No nitrates does seem odd. I used Quick Start and some fish food on the tank for the first month. The manager recommended that for fishless. I did check my kit by testing some water from my turtle tank. Nitrates showed up there. I'm positive the kit works. After I installed the U2, the water turned cloudy for a few days and went away. Not sure if that means anything. I changed 30% of the water last week but this week I did 20% and all the previous weeks I did 20%. It's puzzling if the cycle is even going on at all.

 

[Delapool]

All very odd! Maybe he just takes small breaths...

No other signs to go with the red gills? Flashing? Weight loss or white poop (before meds)? Can't think of much else.

 

[katepost28]

The only other symptom I noticed with the red gills was lethargy and sitting on the bottom of the tank. Wouldn't eat either. When I first got him, he developed a few black spots on his back fins and would breathe heavily. Seemed to calm down after a week or so. The spots went away. They're coming back quickly now. A few on his body as well. It's like a little black patch. Parasite maybe? I have some parasite medicine that I considered trying after the antibiotic but I wasn't sure if that'd be too overwhelming.

 

[Jessy2363]

The only other symptom I noticed with the red gills was lethargy and sitting on the bottom of the tank. Wouldn't eat either. When I first got him, he developed a few black spots on his back fins and would breathe heavily. Seemed to calm down after a week or so. The spots went away. They're coming back quickly now. A few on his body as well. It's like a little black patch. Parasite maybe? I have some parasite medicine that I considered trying after the antibiotic but I wasn't sure if that'd be too overwhelming.

Yep it's a parasite called black spot. it's a little grub. It is responsible for lodging itself into the eye of the fish also if it decides to venture over there. Black spots are what they look like lodged underneath the slime coat. I honestly do not know the treatment for this. But personally I'd buy a parastic med called tetra parasite guard as the ingredients are heavily aimed at many types of parasites.

now there is one other thing it could be that has similar symptoms and it's called digentic flukes. (digenea). it's a parasitic flatworm that shows black spots also. Praziquantel SHOULD treat this as prazi is good at targeting flat worms. ALso if you can get hold of a chemical called Flubendazole 5% power or 10% powder. Dose it at 1/4 teaspoon per 20 gallons. It's hard to overdose this stuff. Put the powder in an airtight container and shake the absolutely sH*t out of it and pour it around the corners of the tank. Dose every 3 days for 9 days. So 3 treatments with 50% water changes just before each treatment. You dose the same as as prazipro. These two chemicals both targets parasites. You could try them at the same time but might be overwhelming. But yeah after your antibiotics are done definitely treat for parasites. The symptoms you say sound very parasitic to me and if not treated properly then they will cause another bacterial infection and your antibiotics will need to start again. I would dose many types of parasite meds as they don't all target the same parasites. I know it sucks dosing chemicals to your fish but unless you know exactly what you are treating then it's just luck really getting the right med.

 

[Delapool]

That would explain a lot with the black spots. As above on black spot parasite disease. As I understand, it's coming back even with the furan 2 treatment?

There is a black fungus but very rare (fuzzy, wispy) but doesn't sound like it.

Actually can you post a pic? I see your post is referring to a patch of black as well as spots of black. What are the sizes of the black patch/spots? Are the spots a black salt speck shape?

Soo, what are you using now (furan2, kanaplax??) and how long does that have left? Also what parasite meds did you pick up and what are the ingredients?

 

[Jessy2363]

Just wanna say one thing. When I treat a fish I do so in this order. Eradicate parasites, then treat for bacteria.
Reason is is that parasites are usually not always but usually the cause of the bacterial infection.
Best thing you can do is a 3% salt dip to just fizZle the buggers off the fish. They may be microscopic they may not be. Regardless salt dip is first thing. Followed by antibiotics with a lower concentration of salt in the water and maybe prazipro also combined with antibiotics. Once the course is over make sure the root of the problem is fixed. I.e. The parasite is completely gone.


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