Sick Angel

[jake37]

I have 5 angels together in a 120 that were raised as fry - most have marks similar to the attached picture - the gold ones have very few (the large male only 2; the female 2 or 3 but much smaller). The question is - is this being caused by another fish (such as a bn pleco sucking the slime); or is it a disease. I do not believe this is caused by angel<->angel aggression. The other tank mates include clown loaches, yoyo loaches, L204, bn pleco, 3 or 4 female kribs (left overs; thankfully i was able to remove all the males) and much smaller fishes that are extremely docile (like cardinals).
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The aquarium has been setup for around 3 years - this set is less violent than other angles i've kept (possibly because they were raised from eggs) and i do not believe this is due to angel<->angel aggression. I believe it is either a disease or another fish. I've gotten suggestion from other people (mostly from people who have never kept angels or anything more complicated than a guppy) and am hopeful for some advice from someone who has seen these sort of marks before...

I want to stress while i'm only showing the picture of one fish they all have similar damage. If it is a disease how would you treat it without removing the fishes (I have no qt tank large enough for these fellows - they are too large for a 29).

 

[Andy Sager]

Angel on Angel aggression would look different than this. If I were to guess, the 3 most likely suspects would be the clown loaches, yo-yo loaches and/or the plecos. I have had bristlenose plecos attack larger Angels at night while the angels were asleep. ( Walk around a hatchery at night with a flashlight and you will see all kinds of things. :^0 LOL )
The main concern now is keeping the wounds from getting infected. If you don't have a hospital tank or a tank where they can be transferred to to heal, I'd try to separate them in your main tank. That or rethink their tankmates.
As for your hypothesis on why these Angels get along better, you are probably correct. Sibling fish tend to get along better than arbitrarily trying to mix fish. Another possibility is that they are all males. In many cases, male only Angel schools tend to get along better than mixed genders or all female schools. Females, when they become sexually mature, have the ability to spawn on their own and can become aggressive towards their tankmates. Males don't have that option.

 

[jake37]

Thank you! I removed the large bn i had this weekend but you are the first person to confirm that a bn will do this sort of damage. I talked to a few loach owners and they uniformly said that a loach attack would damage fins first.

I spent 2 days arguing with someone that angel on angel aggression never look like this but they insisted it was the case (my aggressive female did kill other angels but the damage was never like this - after she killed 2 i removed the others). It isn't that i'm looking for confirmation but someone who actually had this issue before.

Is there any chance it is a disease or are you pretty confident a pleco could do this sort of damage - the bn i removed was quite large (for a bn) - i gave him to the lfs. I started treating the tank with leave extract (which the loaches love).

Angel on Angel aggression would look different than this. If I were to guess, the 3 most likely suspects would be the clown loaches, yo-yo loaches and/or the plecos. I have had bristlenose plecos attack larger Angels at night while the angels were asleep. ( Walk around a hatchery at night with a flashlight and you will see all kinds of things. :^0 LOL )
The main concern now is keeping the wounds from getting infected. If you don't have a hospital tank or a tank where they can be transferred to to heal, I'd try to separate them in your main tank. That or rethink their tankmates.
As for your hypothesis on why these Angels get along better, you are probably correct. Sibling fish tend to get along better than arbitrarily trying to mix fish. Another possibility is that they are all males. In many cases, male only Angel schools tend to get along better than mixed genders or all female schools. Females, when they become sexually mature, have the ability to spawn on their own and can become aggressive towards their tankmates. Males don't have that option.

 

[Andy Sager]

Before dismissing the loaches as suspects, a Pleco will do uniform damage and if you look at these wounds, they are of different sizes. Unless you have different sized plecos that would make different sized holes, my money is moving more towards the loaches. As for which one, you'd have to match the wounds to your fish's mouths.

As for if it's disease, if it's only on the Angels, I'd say no. If it happened on one Angel then spread to others over time, it's a possibility but the wounds lack the typical markings of fungus or the bleeding from bacterial infection or TB. That makes attack more likely than infection.
If you can, try looking at the fish after lights out at night throughout the night. Have a flashlight handy. That or try to film the tank in the middle of the night. Many species of Loaches are night feeders. If you see new wounds daily, you should be able to see it happening.

 

[jake37]

Some people had thought it might be Hexamita. THe loaches have small pointed mouths - about 1/4 the size of the sores.

I've tired looking in the tank at night - i have to use a flash light but i never seen much - i should probably get a red filter for the light - the angels are usually asleep in the plants . I have to think the attacks are fairly short as the angle would notice and try to shake the fish off but maybe they don't notice?

The clown loaches come out at morning feeding and will generally avoid the angels and the angels are not skittish around them. Also when the angels had wrigglers in the tank it was other angels that ate them not the clown loaches (I have 6 in this aquarium). That doesn't mean it isn't them - I would just expect a smaller deeper wound. I will keep an eye on them. There are other smaller pleco (L204) but they normally come to the front and eat pellets (the large male bn never came to the front during hte day - but he did at night). What I really need is some type of night video camera that can film them all night long.

 

[Andy Sager]

If the fish are eating normally, show no signs of emaciation, don't have stringy white feces, discoloration ( if the other angelfish are not also dark), abnormal movements and/or no holes on the head , only on the sides, it's not hexamita. ( It would help if you posted the other Angels with this as well.)

Well, if you have smaller plecos too then they are back in the running.

 

[jake37]

Here is a picture of the gold. they are definitely not emacinated; they are eating less eagerly but they still eat plenty. No problem with feces. No discoloration. No holes or marks on the head. I have 5 L204 and 1 undersize lemon female (bn). But they all eat pellets and stuff. The lemon bn is a real pig but they eat all day long up front.

 

[Andy Sager]

Here is a picture of the gold. they are definitely not emacinated; they are eating less eagerly but they still eat plenty. No problem with feces. No discoloration. No holes or marks on the head. I have 5 L204 and 1 undersize lemon female (bn). But they all eat pellets and stuff. The lemon bn is a real pig but they eat all day long up front.

I see small circular(ish) spots just above the anal fin which could very possibly be where your smaller plecos were attaching. If those match the size of your pleco's mouths, we may have a winner. That said, the divots in your fish are the real concern. Because it's meat that's missing, and your loaches are meat eaters, you can't automatically dismiss them. I'm not that familiar with the L204s and the internet is not really that helpful since I am finding info that says they are omnivores and/or carnivores. This puts them back into the running. Wish I could be more helpful. An eye witness account would really help.

 

[jake37]

I'm not seeing the hole by the anal fin - there is a large hole by the pectoral fin.

L204 are big wood eaters and heavy veggie eaters but like all pleco will eat some meat.

here is a decent description:
https://www.planetcatfish.com/common/species.php?species_id=126

Here is a picture of one of mine:

I see small circular(ish) spots just above the anal fin which could very possibly be where your smaller plecos were attaching. If those match the size of your pleco's mouths, we may have a winner. That said, the divots in your fish are the real concern. Because it's meat that's missing, and your loaches are meat eaters, you can't automatically dismiss them. I'm not that familiar with the L204s and the internet is not really that helpful since I am finding info that says they are omnivores and/or carnivores. This puts them back into the running. Wish I could be more helpful. An eye witness account would really help.

 

[Andy Sager]

I'm not seeing the hole by the anal fin - there is a large hole by the pectoral fin.

L204 are big wood eaters and heavy veggie eaters but like all pleco will eat some meat.

here is a decent description:
https://www.planetcatfish.com/common/species.php?species_id=126

Here is a picture of one of mine:

These are not holes yet but blemishes in a circular(ish) pattern. They almost look like water stains. I could see them when I enlarged the picture. The divot on the gold angel also doesn't show sign of disease. I'm still leaning on attack.

Just checked out the L204. Neat looking fish. They weren't available when I was importing fish. The clown plecos I was getting looked much different.
Hate to say it but " animal protein" is recommended for conditioning the fish for breeding so that ups their position as the culprit(s). Sounds like they need to not be tempted by available fish to control their animal protein intake. :^/

 

[jake37]

Yes the glass needs to be cleaned - very bad about splashing water on it. The new tanks will be 22 instead of 24 inches high to make it easier to do stuff without making a mess.

I'm looking into options for night video cameras to see if something can be done there to at least confirm who is doing what at night.

These are not holes yet but blemishes in a circular(ish) pattern. They almost look like water stains. I could see them when I enlarged the picture. The divot on the gold angel also doesn't show sign of disease. I'm still leaning on attack.

Just checked out the L204. Neat looking fish. They weren't available when I was importing fish. The clown plecos I was getting looked much different.
Hate to say it but " animal protein" is recommended for conditioning the fish for breeding so that ups their position as the culprit(s). Sounds like they need to not be tempted by available fish to control their animal protein intake. :^/