Sick Discus Again?

[suppafreak]

I have 50 gal. tank with:
6 Discuses
2 Congo Tetras
1 Place
1 Goby
1 Small catfish

My water changes schedule is 15 gal every Wed and Sun. Keeping that schedule I had no problems with the fish, however, about 2 weeks ago I had to leave on a trip for a week and I only changed water once during that week. I told my family to feed the fish. When I came back one of the discuses looked a lot darker than the others and sometimes it is so black so I can see the white spot on his body (see the picture below). My Other discuses are OK and look a lot brighter. All fish are eating good, so my big concern is why that one became darker and what the white spot might be. So, since Sunday I start changing water every day, but so far I do not see the improvement.

Any suggestions or ideas?

The first picture shows discus in question and the second show health one.

 

[suppafreak]

Discuss in Question

 

[suppafreak]

This is how the rest of the discusses look

 

[BrianNY]

I'm sorry to tell you this suppafreak but both of those discus are showing signs of stress. A healthy and happy discus will not display the stress bars so strongly (see pic below).

Water quality is the most common issue. You need to be doing at least 30% water changes daily (especially with juvenile discus). You should be wiping the inside glass and cleaning your filters at least once a week. I would do a good gravel vac as well. You have to be very careful not to overfeed as that will quickly degrade the water.

Try doing this and I think the condition of your fish will improve.

 

[suppafreak]

Thanks for the reply.

I am guessing the "stress bars" are the vertical ones. All this time I thought that this was the natural coloration of the fish. And by the looks at you fish they should not be visible at all.

Any way, at this point it is just too much trouble for me. It seems to me that the fish is always stressful. I can not change the water everyday now. Most likely I will have to return the fish to the store and get something requires less attention or take down the aquarium all together. I just can't give that much attention to the fish right now.

Any suggestions for fish that require less attention?

I used had African Cichlids, which even had fry at one point. Maybe I just get them.

 

[Billsgate]

Or you can get some German Blue rams and keyhole cichlids! (If you want to stay in SA-theme, like your discus)

Good that you are probably taking them back! Kudos to you!

 

[macman7010]

Suppafreak,

While I really value BrianNY's opinion (he has helped me along the way here and there) I dont agree that you must do water changes of 30% daily to successfully keep Discus. I have kept a variety of Discus over the years including Wild Heckle caught right from Amazonian waters. To me changing 30% of your water daily only does one thing Shocks your Bilogical Filter into not functioning anymore.

Even Discus expert Jack Wattley recommends a twice weekly water change of between 25-30%, so again it all comes down to the particular hobbyist. I personally change my Discus' water at 30% every other day, or 2 to 3 times per week. What I will say is that you should not keep Discus and not change thier water at least 2 times per week, at lest 20 % per change. Some experts claim more or less, to me 2 times a week is a fair amount that will keep the fish healthy.

 

[macman7010]

Also Suppafreak what is your PH value, for Discus it should be 7.0 or below, and are you using any water supplements. I highly recommend Amazon Rain for Discus tanks. It keeps the PH low and adds some essential elements that are found in native amazonian waters. Also make sure your water tempature is 84 or above.

 

[tiptoptank]

You can raise discus in 8.0 Ph with no problems. Never add chems to the water, EVER. Just keep your W/C up and the fish should be fine. As for the sick fish I would move him to a QT tank and bump the temp to 88 then see if he does any better. If not I would start a Metro treatment. 400mg per 10 gallons every 8-12 hour W/C of 50% before every treatment.

 

[greenmaji]

Im wondering what your amonia, nitrite and nitrate values are before and after these water changes your doing.. and to the discus keepers... what values are you guys serching for.. do you change the water even when all these values are 0? I have not kept discus but id love to some day and this kind of confusion in the hobby bothers me to no end... sounds like a quesion in a question...

 

[BrianNY]

I don't search for any values greenmagi. That is unless I'm trying to raise a spawn and then I only check for conductivity.

I also draw a distinction between juvenile discus and adults. Juveniles are much more susceptible to many of the common discus ailments. I only change water weekly in my 125 planted discus tank. I change water daily in my grow out tanks. I don't fear disturbing the bacteria colony because that only occurs with a huge pH shift. My discus have become acclimated to my tap water. I have fiddled with and abandoned all additives.

The discus experts (of which I'm not), all have their own ways of doing things. What works for them might not work for me. Different water, different bioloads and the ability to spend time and money all come into play. To me, it's a perpetual learning experience. That's why I keep these fish.

 

[greenmaji]

The reason I was asking is that it was my belief that it is nessasary to change the water in an aquarium because of a flaw in filtration design.. ie.. there is a great lack in anaerobic filtration in filtration designs requiring water changes to remove the nitrate that will build up from the lack of anaerobic filtration.. Plants are the most common form of anaerobic filtration so it does not supprise me when someone says they dont change the water in there planted tank as often. I was actually wondering if it was the water "quality" or the removal of possible patogens, bacteria, what have you that may be accumulating in you tanks.
buy the way your disus look great!!!

 

[DeFeKt]

I highly recommend Amazon Rain for Discus tanks. It keeps the PH low and adds some essential elements that are found in native amazonian waters.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't discus african cichlids?
and the amazon, isn't that in south america?

 

[macman7010]

BrianNY, good idea with letting the fish adjust to your water. The only additives I use are the Amazon Rain and Aquari Sol. Aquari Sol oddly enough are dissolved copper salts and using it at 1/2 dosage once a week or less can get enough dissolved copper in your water to kill off any potential parasite and not hurt the fish. Stress Coat is another beneficial additive for Discus Fish.

As far as Discus being African Cichlids not that is very incorrect. Discus come from the Amazonian Waters of Brazil and are from an even more distinct water type called Black Water. Some Tetras and other fish are from black water also and this water often times has immense rotting vegetation and mineral deposits making the ph 5.0 and below. I was watching a special where wild discus were being pulled out of water with a ph of 4.8 . African Cichlids prefer hard water with a high ph where discus prefer low ph values and soft water - polar opposites.

 

[DeFeKt]

i stand corrected

 

[Kari]

So...discus are freshwater fish then? I thought they were salt water?

 

[greenmaji]

The reason I was asking is that it was my belief that it is nessasary to change the water in an aquarium because of a flaw in filtration design.. ie.. there is a great lack in anaerobic filtration in filtration designs requiring water changes to remove the nitrate that will build up from the lack of anaerobic filtration.. Plants are the most common form of anaerobic filtration so it does not supprise me when someone says they dont change the water in there planted tank as often. I was actually wondering if it was the water "quality" or the removal of possible patogens, bacteria, what have you that may be accumulating in you tanks.
buy the way your disus look great!!!

I was trying to get at why discus keepers change the water in there tanks so much to try and help thouse that have problems keeping them healthy but it looks like the discussion has gone sideways to what discus are.
Is it to replenish electolites, to keep conductivity up or to keep quality up as in trying to keep the nitogen cycle in check.. trying to keep zero nitrates. or is it a combination of a bunch of things that most discus keepers are not sure of??
TIA

 

[tiptoptank]

www.Simplydiscus.com This will tell you every thing you will ever want to know about discus. If any of you are interested in owning these amazing fish please do your self a favor and research on this page first. It has given me a vast knowledge of the fish and better yet a great love for the hobby.

 

[greenmaji]

I took a look at the link provided. It didnt answer my question as to what are the other "bad" things in a tank other than nitrate.. it referred to possible other wastes.. after mechanical filtration and chemical filtration and the normal biological filtration Im wondering what other wastes there are other than nitrate.
Im wondering if there is knowledge of nitrate filtration (reduction because Im aware that elimination is not possible through filtration) i.e. anaerobic filtration.. the plenum method.. albeit was developed for reefkeeping has interesting ideas that could possibly be adapted.. such as a deep substrate bed in a sump.. instead of the trapped off area... that should reduce to a significant degree nitrates in a aquarium.. the bacteria involved in this reaction is not the same as the bacteria that is in normal bio-filtration.. if anyone was going to give me the, O2 deprivation posion gass discussion, the bacteria grows in a O2 depleted enviroment in the first place.... Im wondering if this idea only holds true in hard water enviroments..

 

[BrianNY]

Anyone that has kept discus will notice that they produce a very heavy slime coat. It isn't uncommon to see this slime accumulating on filter intake tubes, heaters, and the sides and bottom of the tank itself. It also will become part of the water column. It is a breeding ground for bacteria if left to accumulate in the aquarium.

The reason for changing so much water is to minimize the effect of this while also reducing other DOCs which are part of the fishes normal biological processes. For this reason it is also necessary to regularly clean filters and equipment.

I'm going to start a discus discussion thread in the general FW section.

HTH