sick guppies

[robbie90]

Hi,
I'm a little stuck as to how to diagnose whats is up with 2 of my guppies.
When i looked into the tank i noticed 1 female guppy was hovering about the top of the tank just below the surface upright but at about a 45oc angle and also a male was at the bottom of the tank at the same angle and tail fin clamped. i have since put them in a breeding box to moniter them and both are currently vertical head up and still flapping and spinning.
My tank has been up and running for a few months now and im currently treating my tank for fin rot and before this i was treating it for white spot (seems like there is constantly something wrong!)
i water change weekly 15% unless i medicate in which case i let the medication run it's course then water change 30% adding water of same temperature (all replacement water is treated to take out chemicals).
I haven't had much luck with guppies the past few weeks and thought it might be water quality but everytime i test my tank the water seems fine (ph 7.6, ammonia, nitrate and nitrite all at 0 and water temp constant at 76f)
I'm not sure if it i should treat for internal bacteria infection or just to start adding aquarium salt as i've heard this does wonders. any recommendations as to which salt welcome.
i have a 300litre juwel rio tank (approx 80 us gallons), internal filter and external eheim 2217 filter.
Fish in it are 1 beta, 1 cherry barb, 1 clown loach, 1 peppered catfish, 1 suckin loach, 6 platties, 10 neon tetras 14 guppies and several algie shrimps
Just don't know what to do and don't want anyone else to get sick.
Cheers Rob.

[Lowryder]

I know Maracyn Two treats for a bunch of problems. I would also suggest doing atleast 25% pwc

[dkpate]

Welcome to AA!
Also, your tank is not cycled. You should have some nitrates.

[robbie90]

right.. i thought it was to good to be true to have everything at spot on 0!
how do i get my tank to cycle itself now as it's been nearly 3 months.

[dkpate]

What kind of test are you using? Because if it has been going for 3 months, it should have SOMETHING. There have been fish in there the whole time?
When I was medicating, I changed the water more often than they tell you to.
Also, I wouldn't use salt with the catfish & pleco in there. Some people do but I wouldn't. Have you ever put salt on a slug? That's what I see happening LOL.
Just keep up with your water changes, probably do some extra ones, and the fin rot (as long as there's no fungus) should clear up.

[mfdrookie516]

do you have plants in this tank? I think its weird if the tank is not cycled that you dont have ammonia or nitrite readings. If it has plants, that could explain why you have no nitrates

[robbie90]

yeah i got loads of different plants all thriving!
can someone tell me if it is possible to cycle a tank while the fish are still in it?

[dkpate]

I think your tank is good to go, just up the water changes to keep it clean, and heal the fins!
You could try some anti-parasitic food though. Are their bellies big?

[robbie90]

I am a bit confused by it all - i know what you mean with the cycling issue but surely if my tank wasn't cycled it would have high amonia readings?
i got the tank early Jan and put fish in it round about Feb. My test kit is the API freshwater master test kit which i measure the readings with although it concerned me the other day as when i tested PH it registered as lower than normal so i double checked it and it was the same as the rest of my readings - surely the ph of a tank can't dramatically change within 5 mins? i just think the cup used to extract water must've been used for adding a treatment at some point and effected the reading - lesson learn't tho i keep 1 measure aside for the sole purpose of gettin water for testing.
Think i might have added too many fish too soon perhaps as the fish that seem to be dying are quite new but my older fish are fine. Also i have been misdiagnosing as for the past couple of weeks i've thought it has been fin rot but when i read about the fish poo being white and stringy it kinda hit the nail on the head about internat bacteria.
i did a water change yesterday and have added anti bacteria medication as recommended but my fish are still gettin poorly - i've noticed a couple of shredded tails but gotta give the medication some time. will keep posting tho as it's good to refere back to.

[robbie90]

oh as for bloating - the only fish that look bloated are a couple of my platties. they look pregnant but have no gravid spot.
My guppies all look fine a couple a little larger but not unusually larger- i can see they're pregnant.

[dkpate]

Well, like Rookie said, since you have a bunch of plants, they could be taking care of the nitrates for you, so you won't get readings. As long as you have no ammonia and nitrites, and you are using the API kit, I think your tank is good. You might just have gotten some bad fish from the store.

[robbie90]

Ah nice 1.
Well things still bad- another couple of fish been affected. this has got to be the worst thing i have ever seen! so sad but only on day 3 out of 5 treatments. Also i've noticed it's effecting the guppy tails and fins more - they're shredding then dying.
i've started adding aqualibrium salt but i'm only adding small quantities gradually so it'll eventually add up to just under 0.1% of total tank and act as a tonic. just been adding a 25ml cup full mixed with water every 6 hours or so as it says to build it up over 3/4 days. don't want to add too much if it'll effect my catfish and loach - keeping an eye on them but so far the only fish that seem to be effected by this disease is guppies.
Measured readings again today and all the same, high ph everything else 0.

[lionheart]

i got the tank early Jan and put fish in it round about Feb.

hi there
its now only march
so you never did a fishless cycle ? is that correct
i dont think you are cycled
how old is the api test kit the date code is last 4 digits on bottles
IF NEED BE TAKE A WATER SAMPLE TO YOUR LFS TO TEST IT FOR YOU
i think your looking at 8/ 12 weeks cycling with fish
you need to do partial water changes daily
i would guess 20% of tank volume
the fact your other fish are not gasping for air
could be they have been accustomed
to the poison ammonia / nitrites in water
do you have enough water agitation ?
are the fish getting slowly suffocated ?
how many fish exactly do you have and there sizes
and in what size tank
deseases are usually a sign of poor water quality
fish get stressed then the deseases break out
are you adding conditioner to your water
some medications will destroy your good bacteria
then you end up back to square one
un-cycled tank
best to treat poorly fish in another Q tank
if after getting test done by LFS
it shows your not cycled
all you can do seen as there are fish in tank
is do water changes daily twice even 3 times if neccesary
depending on amount of stock in tank

[robbie90]

i did leave the tank for about 3/4 weeks just running with plants in it as i was told this should be sufficient then added fish from their old tank to this big tank gradually in small groups.
the last 4 digits on the bottles are 0806 - they came when i got the tank.
im not getting any readings for ammonia or nitrites in the tank - would they not show if a tank is not cycled or do they only show on test kits if a tank is cycled.
i have an air pump in the tank with a large air disc.
the tank is a 300 litre tank approx 4 ft by 2 ft (it's a juwel rio 300) with 10 neons (each half inch long), 1 cherry barb (1 inch), i siamese fighter (about 2 inch), 1 clown loach (about 2 inch), 1 sucking loach (about 2 inch), 1 catfish (about 1 inch), 6 platties (4 about 1 inch, 2 about 1cm) and now 9 guppies (all about 1 to 2 inch).
yeha i add conditioner too it to take out the chems etc when i do water changes.
At the moment im treating the tank so will carry out the daily water changes when it's finished treatment (currently on day 3 of 5) but will take a sample to lfs tomorrow to get a second opinion on my water.

[lionheart]

your kit is out of date 08 is the month 06 is the year the majority of the tests have a 3 year life span 4 years on nitrite
i would suggest getting a new api freshwater test kit asap
leaving your tank churning over once set up will not do anything for a cycle
the moment you added fish was the time your tank started to cycle but cycling with fish takes quite a long time
i suggest get water tested by LFS and do a 50% water change immediatley
and
if water tests show you are not cycled as i suspect it will
i think your current kit is out of date and giving false reading
then you will need todo daily or every other day water changes about 1/3rd of water to control the ammonia and nitrite being produced toa safe level
if you can get some substrate or filter media from a friends tank in the mean time to aid your cycle that will speed you up somewhat
as for not doing water changes while treatment is on going that could be deadly for your fish health
are you sure of the diagnose cos it sounds like ammonia/nitrite poisoning to me from what i read
this will not get better or improve only get worse untill you do water changes

[dkpate]

Tanks do not take 8 weeks to cycle with fish, only if you are vacuuming EVERYTHING out of the tank and changing out the filter media. Ammonia and nitirite should be 0, and nitrate should be between 5 and 40, but since you have a ton of plants, like Rookie said, you might not get any nitrate reading.
Just keep up the water changes. Do their fins look like they have fungus on them?

[robbie90]

well i took a sample to the lfs and they tested and said my water is fine, ph was at 7.0 and nitrite 0. they didn't do a test on amonia as they said if there was a problem it'd shop up on nitrite but im going to go a bit further out of town to another shop to get a 3rd opinion later on.
The casualties have been showing various symptoms, the 1st couple had clamped tails and some sort of red substance on some of the edges, the next few had shredded tails and now i have 2 fish that are poorly, 1 has white mouth (mouth rot) and the other has a white film over 1 eye. i have isolated these fish into my birthing box so i can keep an eye on them. i am 3 days into treating with water life MYXAZIN (4th day today i'll treat a bit later on) and salt aqualibrium. i just hope this all stops soon.
i'll be getting a new test kit later on too (just to make sure) as the shop i went today had sold out.
I would say a couple of them look like they have a tip of fin rot but nothing that looks serious - it should be treated with the medication im using.
when i get a definate answer to my amonia level i will see if i need to change what im doing - if someone else confirms my amonia levels are 0 then it can't be amonia or nitrite poisoning. hopefully i will know tonight and if that is the case i will carry out an imediate water change. Actually it was after the last water change that the tail shredding started! i made sure the water was at the same temp as the tank (26oc) and treated with interpet bioactive tap safe.

[lionheart]

well if the LFS says nitrite is 0 then
i am thinking your ammonia level should be ok but this is not definate it could be ammonia is present and there's not enough good bacteria present to consume it
like a mini cycle if you recently added more fish
i am assuming the LFS used api liquid test kit and not a tablet or test strip as these are known to be inaccurate
your ph is not a issue
ph should be a constant level
only if you get fluctuating ph will it become a problem
if your satified your ammonia nitrite nitrate are fine then
i guess the medication your using is the route to take
not too sure what deseases you mentioned
i think fin rot, cotton wool desease, mouth rot, was some you mentioned
just be careful as to what meds you use in conjunction with each other

[robbie90]

well well well after stumbling across this info about api test kits
Important Information for API Freshwater Master Test Kit Users!
i retested my tankj acording to it's instruction and i got a reading of 5.0! which means everything is ok.. i also tested my less well planted tank full of babies and that read 20 which is not another issue i need to sort out but im expecting more plants soon so when they get planted that should sort that out but thats another issue.
also the digits i used in checking my test kit where the wrong numbers! i never used the lot number which the last 4 digits are between 0507 and 1007 so i still have a couple of months left in them yet!
if u use an api liquid test kit definately read that link - it's a god send and many thanks to the author.
the lfs used the tetra version of the liquid drops so all good.
so after all that i learn it must just be a bad dose of internal bacteria infection... and it's been 1 **** of an education too - once again many thanks for all your guidance guys.
hopefully though it's on it's way out. i consulted the lfs and they advised to finish the treatment and reinsert my carbon filter and remain with the salt... hopefully then they should be happy!
also another thing she mentioned is that guppies have quite a low immune system and this infection is probably due to them being weakened by the white spot! shame tho as i've lost alot of lovely fish.

[robbie90]

ooer i never realised that it star'd out the word thats the opposite of heaven!!! i didn't realise it was barred....