Slow decline, then death ~ nothing obvious.

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

walklong

Aquarium Advice Activist
Joined
Jun 23, 2013
Messages
101
Location
Missouri Ozarks
Hoping for enlightenment for the future (and maybe save last of trio). We purchased a trio of red delta tail guppies at a club swap meet on October 4th. Vendor gave us info that suggested the females were in they're first pregnancy.

Brought them home and drip acclimated them over about 90 minutes time, then released them into a lightly planted 20 L, which was holding about 40 2 week old guppy fry from another trio we have. The new fish settled in over the next several hours and were active and eating by the next morning.

October 8, found nine (9) new fry in the tank, neither female exhibited 'traditional' warning traits that she was near term, and we've learned that the first batch of fry might be as few as 10 or so. Then concluded that few, if any were eaten and we would just pay MUCH closer attention as we waited for next batch, intending to separate the female for birth.

October 11, added three (3) juvenile green cory to the tank. (Tank also has two (2) assassin and half a dozen or so pond/ramshorn snails).

October 14, transferred 15 newborn fry from a third guppy female to the tank, separated from the general population with a Lee's net breeder.

October 18, observed all three adult guppies behaving lethargically, hanging out at or near the surface, idling and not responding to food. I immediately did a 50% water change, and tested the original water: pH 8.0; NH3 0.0 ppm; NO2 0.0 ppm; NO3 10-15 ppm (API liquid test, all reagents well within date range).

Put an airstone in the tank, thinking that the O2 concentration might be low, also added a fresh carbon cartridge to the main filter (Marina S10, with a single cartridge and otherwise full of Seachem Matrix.

October 19, found the male dead in the tank first thing in the morning. Both females were hanging out in the back corner near the surface, although they both came out to feed. I put another filter in tank (Fluval 2 internal, with a cylinder of API medium/fine filter pad and a handful of seeded Seachem Matrix in the canister). Oriented the Fluval at the rear with the output aimed at the back glass to break-up the flow.

October 20, (this morning) found an adult female dead in the tank first thing.

Remaining female (I suspect she's NOT the one that dropped fry) remains lethargic and hanging out near the surface, fins clamped but no other external symptoms.

I've done 30 - 50% water changes every week/10 days, with addition of treated water (use either Prime or API Stresscoat +), top-off with treated water (I add dechlor/treatment to the bucket, and temp match when I fill the bucket).

Fry are eating: Hikari First Bites, new hatched brine shrimp, banana worms and micro worms. Adults also offered Omega One micro pellets/flake food. (All fresh).

Tank temp had been sitting at 72F, added heater and slowly raised the temp to 80 F, then dropped it back to 77.4 F) (as measured with my digital thermometer, used in HVAC service - I trust it).

There are NO obvious, external issues with these fish except for the clamped fins and the lethargy. No fin rot or damage, no spots, no fuzz, nothing. Gills are normal color and not flared, no pinecone. Fish idles in place with pectoral fins and a little tail fin movement.

The Cory's and the fry are all very active and behaving/eating normally. Tank parameters have been very stable (Saturday, the 18th would have changed the water anyway, but the test results above were from the water pre-change).

The tank has been up and running since early August. Substrate is eco complete under about an inch of black Nat Geo gravel from Petsmart. Three (3) temple plants, a small water sprite and a couple small dwarf sag. Three clumps of subwassertang and a clump of java moss and a few leaves of java fern. A tested inert rock, a piece of mopani drift wood and pennplax decoration are the only other things in the tank.

Any thoughts? (I can post pictures and needed.)
 
That's correct - as of this posting, no fry found dead. Whatever has affected the mature guppies has not had a detectable effect on either the fry, the three Cory, or the few snails.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Aquarium Advice mobile app
 
Strange! And no other tank change between 14th and 18th when it started. No other water change or temp change or anything?
 
Nope, nothing between 14th & 18th - temp steady, nothing added or removed.
Yesterday afternoon I removed the surviving female to a 1 gal qt along with a single fry (as a 'canary'). Fresh water at 77°F, dechlor with Stresscoat+, 2 tsp salt a plastic plant and a sponge filter. No change in behavior or appearance. This morning she's dead.
img_3071544_0_7837ff6a7c35140e62aaab742617b9b7.jpg


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Aquarium Advice mobile app
 
Would you know if the breeder kept them in similar water conditions before you purchased? The time period seems too long but unless it was internal bacterial, then I come back to them not liking the water conditions (some how and even though they look good). That would explain why the fry are fine still?? Where's Agatha Christie when you need her...
 
I'm going to track him down and ask, didn't think to ask at the swap meet, but wasn't very concerned just based on general resilience of guppies.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Aquarium Advice mobile app
 
Good luck. Keep us posted if anything pops up. I've had platies and tetras go one by one which otherwise seemed fine but nothing as drastic as that.
 
I will - I'm bummed with the loss (the trio was picked out by my 10 year old), but much more interested in the cause, and I will keep the thread alive for community benefit.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Aquarium Advice mobile app
 
IF you get more guppies you really should Treat them in a hospital tank for at least 7-10 days before anything else. I know it really sucks, but guppies are just small fish and when they get stressed they get sick and die easily. I know the drip thing was suppose to help, but honestly it does very little to help them. If i get new guppies, even ones for 1.50 at the petsore, i always give them a cleaning out of disease and parastites. I use a ten gallon with a heater and airstone, bare bottom no filter. Use a product called Methylene blue and keep the tank medium to darkish blue for not less than 5 days. I feed them a good antibiotic fish food (Oxytetracycline) and i do PWC 25% everyday, plus i dump aquarium salt by the heaps into it or use seasalt diluted and dissolved. I have not lost a new petsore guppy or injured guppy in a very long time using this method. keeping it warm in there 80-82 speeds up growth of anything harmful on them so it can be destroyed and after a week my frail little guppies will be fat happy, and swarming the surface. Its important to monitor ammonia in a Q tank like this, because it will get out of control fast with no filter.
 
IF you get more guppies you really should Treat them in a hospital tank for at least 7-10 days before anything else. I know it really sucks, but guppies are just small fish and when they get stressed they get sick and die easily. I know the drip thing was suppose to help, but honestly it does very little to help them. If i get new guppies, even ones for 1.50 at the petsore, i always give them a cleaning out of disease and parastites. I use a ten gallon with a heater and airstone, bare bottom no filter. Use a product called Methylene blue and keep the tank medium to darkish blue for not less than 5 days. I feed them a good antibiotic fish food (Oxytetracycline) and i do PWC 25% everyday, plus i dump aquarium salt by the heaps into it or use seasalt diluted and dissolved. I have not lost a new petsore guppy or injured guppy in a very long time using this method. keeping it warm in there 80-82 speeds up growth of anything harmful on them so it can be destroyed and after a week my frail little guppies will be fat happy, and swarming the surface. Its important to monitor ammonia in a Q tank like this, because it will get out of control fast with no filter.

Thanks for your input Matt - I'm convinced a prophylactic quarantine period is the path in our future. Two questions - a) any suggestion or recommendation for the fish food with antibiotics, my LFS carries Omega One products but I buy from Kens, Dr. F&S, etc on line; b) suggested NaCl concentration, either specific gravity (SG) or ppm (I can measure and control for either); when hatching out brine shrimp, I'm using sea salt and adjusting to SG.
 
You want to get the Oxytetracycline pellets, and grind the up in your blender and only feed that for 7-10 days. I usually just mix about a cup of sea salt in a 5g bucket of warm water and agitate it for 30 minutes before topping off 1/4th of the tank. I would not go to crazy with it. As far as methylene, its really not totally necessary but i find that if you can buy and setup a ten gallon, then using it is really easy and totally harmless to the fish, and helps them because they get nitrate and co2 poisining in the shipping bags, and methylene will help with this as well as rid off fungus bacteria and some parasites, improve their red blood cell count and oxygen, after a few days in a warm tank they will be frothing at the surface healthy, guarenteed. Just got to do PWC like 50% every other day because ammonia builds up fast. Ten days and they should be ready to move to the main tank. I don't have any idea on the Brine shrimp salt concentration, i just buy it frozen for 4 dollars and its more than enough for a month. I dont really find the need to measure the salinity that important. It should say on the bag, just go with about 1/2 brackish strength or 1/4th seawater strength. It will help with parasites and bacteria and grow their slime coat back.
 
The speed of death and onset of symptoms are most consistent with viral disease. When fish are new and stressed, they are immune compromised and viruses can kill them in about 2 weeks. Bacterial infection is possible but those usually show some outward sign like fin rot or skin (scale) marks. The fry were probably not stressed like the parents and were able to fight off the virus or bacteria.
 
Back
Top Bottom