Tank going down hill and I need some help

[Macrosill]

Okay, I need some help here. This tank is a 10 gallon fw. It has been up and running for about 6 months. Everything was going well untill a few weeks ago. I started losing fish for no apparent reason. I then had an outbreak of ICH. I started treating with high temp and salt. I lost 2 more fish but now the Ich is gone, thus far. Its only been a little over a week. I am attaching a copy of the log for this tank. It has all the details.

Comments/Observations Temperature (F) pH Nitrate (ppm) Nitrite (ppm) Ammonia (ppm) Maintenance
1/14/2006 Initial entry - Tank is established for a few months. Contains 1 Silver Molly, 3 Black Mollies, 1 Cardinal Tetra, 2 Neon Tetra's, 2 White Tetra's and 3 Cory Cats. 78 6.4 40 0 0
1/15/2006 40 % water change due to high nitrates, see entry 01/14/05
1/19/2006 Flourescant hood installed, changed from incandescant
1/20/2006 Noticed Ich on Cardinal Tetra and possibly one Black Molly. Started raising water temp. Will treat with Salt tomorrow and need temp between 83 and 86 degrees.
1/21/2006 Raised temp to 84 degrees. Added salt 1/4 tsp/gal per hour over 8 hours to a total of 2 tsp/gal 84
1/22/2006 20 % water change and added 1 gal due to evaporation. Changed filter cartridge. 85 7.0 10 0 0 10% water change
1/25/2006 Silver Molly found floating covered with ICH 85
1/26/2006 Signs of Ich on 1 neon tetra only. 85
1/29/2006 Signs of ICH on small Neon Tetra 85 10% water change
1/30/2006 Lost 1small Neon Tetra
2/1/2006 Lost 1 Black Molly 84 7.2 40 0 0
2/2/2006 Lost another Black Molly
2/4/2006 84 120 0 0
2/4/2006 40% pwc. 84 10 0 0
2/6/2006 Cardinal Tetra missing
2/9/2006 Cloudy water 85 7.4 20 .25 0

Today I noticed the water is slightly cloudy. I tested the parameters again and they are listed above, take notice to the .25ppm reading of nitires, I found this odd. The cloudiness appears to be white. I don't know why I started losing fish and why the water has turned cloudy. I am missing a cardinal and that may be causing the problem today but I am not sure.

I feed once a day. Some flake and two pellets for the cats. I tried some frozen brine last week. May that is it? I dont know.

I am running a penguin bio-wheel 100, substarte is gravel with some fake plants and ceramic decoations.

TIA,
Brian

[bosk1]

For starters, the temp. is not high enough to treat ich. Ich multiplies faster and higher temperatures until you get above 86, at which point it will generally die.

What type of salt did you add, and how much?


Oh, and: good luck!

[jcarlilesiu]

question about your log... you stated that on 2/1 that the nitrates read 40 PPM then just 3 days later they had jumped to 120 PPM. In my eyes that is virtually impossible.

Secondly, its required that when treating for ich with salt and heat that you MUST maintain the salt content. After just a day of salt you list a 20% PWC. Did you add the salt to the new water? If not this explains why ich is expanding. You have raised the temp. in order to increase the life cycle. This speeds up the killing of the ich because in portions of its lifecycle it can't hand the salt and dies. HOWEVER, if you raise the temp, and don't add the salt that you removed, essentially lowering the salt content in the water, you are just increasing the speed of death among fish.

You water is most likely cloudy due to the nitrite spike, and is caused by a bacterial bloom. I would guess this nitrite spike is due to decaying fish matter. Did you remove the dead fish immediatly or is it possible they stayed in the tank for awhile. This in itself isn't harmful to your fish, however the nitrites are very toxic. At .25 i think you are ok, but it will be stressing already stressed and sick fish. If it gets over .50 i would do another immediate water change of 10% PWC, wait a few hours and check the perameters again.

To get your tank back under control...

Figure out how much salt you have remaining in the tank... if you have never added anymore i would say very little due to all the water changes. Re-apply salt treatment immediatly to prevent further spread of ich. Maintain 85 degrees. You should see ich disappearing with in a few days. Dont change the water during treatment. After 3 consecutive days of no ich, lower temps slowly to 78 (or where ever you like it) and do a 50% water change. Then maintain your normal PWC procedures.

As far as the deaths go. I would say that most likely it was caused by ich, or shock. The reason i say this is... the molly is actually brackish thus the salt treatment shouldnt have killed it. However it is possible the salt caused the neon to die, because it didn't have symptoms of disease for long, and they arn't the hardiest of fish.

When you do partial water changes, do you add prime or other water treatments? Are you sure you are maintaining the same temp with in a couple degrees? HTH

[fearlessfisch]

Just my experience...I always treat ich with just heat and no salt. I have a vague memory that corycats don't do well with salt, and heat alone has always worked just fine for me. You do need to have a temp of at least 87, sustained for several weeks, for it to work, though.

[toddnbecka]

To treat for Ich, you don't need to add the salt slowly. In any case, neons/cardinals are not really compatible with mollies. The tetras do best in soft, slightly acidic water, while mollies do best in hard, alkaline water with a bit of salt. If you maintain a pH of 7.4, that's better suited to mollies, platy's and swordtails. Adding 1 tsp salt/gallon will make it better for the livebearers too. 25% water changes weekly, but don't use salted water to top off the tank between changes, because salt doesn't evaporate. It's always best to find out what water conditions any given fish requires before buying it, not to mention the other factors, like aggression/temprament, schooling, etc.

[tropicfishman]

I've had problems myself with a cloudy tank lately, I blame it on the live plant thats turning brown, which needs to be removed, anyways, like everyone else said do a water change to eliminate the cloudiness, but be sure to vacuum the gravel instead of just using a bucket to remove the water

[Macrosill]

I use Doc Wellfish's Freshwater Salt at a level of 2tsp/gal. When doing pwc's I add salt to the new water at a level of 2tsp/gal. I only calculate the amount of water actually removed from the tank by me, not evaporated water. The salt does not evaporate.

I dechlorinate with Stress Coat.

I go by the ICH guidelines listed here. http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums...ad.php?t=39759

They have worked well in the past. It says a temp of 86 is ideal, if you are comfortable with it. If not a temp of 82-84 is okay. I am at 84 and sometimes slightly higher.

As to the nitrates being 40ppm and then 120ppm 3 days later may be reading the color chart wrong. At that high a level the colors are very close in shade. It may have really been 80 but I would rather error on the high side and do a pwc accordingly.

The nitrItes before the pwc of 30% today was slightly above .25ppm. After the pwc they were slightly below .25ppm. Ammonia was 0 before and after. NitrItes were 10ppm after the pwc.

I vac'ed the gravel and took out all the decorations in search of the missing cardinal. I could not find it. I do not remember removing it. I will give it a few hours and report back on the cloudiness once it settles down.

The last sign of ICH was on 01/30/06.

Thanks for all the help,
Brian

[Macrosill]

Cloudines has gotten less but is still slighty there. I raised the temp to 86 just to be safe. The ammonia is still 0. Nitrites are slightly detectable, lower than .25. Nitrates are 10ppm. Will wait to see how it goes.

I know the temp is maintained within .8 degree. I use a digital thermometer.

Brian

[fish_4_all]

I don't know too much about it but it sounds like you had a major biological crash like you stated. It might be a result of your biowheel failing, it could have been caused by a fish that died and you didn't find, it could have just been a thing that will never be explained.
I think you need to quarantine the fish out of the tank because the high nitrites and nitrates are going to make the fish die faster because they are already weak from the ich. I know most people don't like to use meds but I think this might be a case where it would be pertinant due to the tank parameters. Take out any carbon you are using while using the meds, I figure you know this already but had to add it.

IMO, and this a stretch, this is a problem that could be all too common with small tanks. I haven't run anything but 10 gallon tanks for a long time and have seen the pattern in both of them. Cycled for 3 months, tank gets a few fish, a few plants and things go great for about 2 months and then something goes haywire and repeats about every 2-4 months. I never had ich but I did have fish just die all the sudden, I have had a cloudy water condition that just went away and now I have an algae problem that is making my tanks look like I never change the water and they sit in my window in the sun all day. They never get sunlight and I change the water regularly. All of my plants died because of this but my fish are happy. I could say it is caused by something specific in a tank but the second tank I set up does it almost exactly 3 weeks after it happens to my first one. And I set it up almost exactly 3 weeks after the first.

My humble opinion:

The smaller the tank the larger chance you have of something going haywire and causing a major disaster where the larger the tank the less chance of having a catastrophy because of the higher water volume and the larger surface area for biological filtration.

Trust me, if I had room, I would use my 10's as breeders and set up my 25 and 55. I have never had this problem when I had my 55 set up.

Best of luck and the best advice I can give you:
Don't take a 10 gallon tank for granted, ever. It will surprise you when you least expect it.

[Macrosill]

The tank has totally cleared up. Nitrites seem to be falling daily, less and less detectable. Under .25ppm. I Hope I have gotten over this hump and smooth sailing is ahead. I agree with a small tank things are hard to keep in check. Now if I can convince the wife I might be able to squeeze a 30 inbetween the couch and the wall. That would be easier to keep the water in check.

[Macrosill]

Update -

The NitrIes have gone back down to zero. Yah! The water is totally clear and the fish seem to be doing well. No more casualties or Ich.

Thanks for all the help and support,
Brian