The new guy and his ich infested cycling tank...help

[SCFatz]

Ok This is what I have...

4 neon tetras x 1.5" = 6"
4 zebra danios x 2" = 8"
2 sunburst platys x 1.5" = 3"
2 cory cats x 2.5" = 5"
2 mollies up to 4" each = 8"
2 guppies x 2" = 4"
Algae eater

A "mystery" fish has presented with ich this morning.
I read the article found on this site about and it was great!!
I added the list to gather opinions on what the best treatment would be given the options and the stock I have...

Also...the tank is cycling because its new and I'm an idiot (I gathered a good understanding of cycling after the tank was stocked and I was prepared to work though that,but it seems the ich treatment will set me back....that may not be a bad thing i guess.

I know to remove the charcoal from the premade packaged while treating the ich..but should it have been in there at all while the tank was cycling?And how do I establish a "biological filter" if my only option for replacement is the charcoal filled filter media?

I'm loving my tank,but the challenge is growing.I'm cool with that,but I sure could use some advice on all of the above.

Thanks,Fatz

[rich311k]

Raise your temperature slowly to 87F. That is all you need to do to treat ich. Add a little aeration if your fishes breathing becomes labored. The higher temps will also speed up your cycle. Leave the temp elevated for two weeks after the last signs of ich.

[SCFatz]

And no charcoal for the duration of the cycle or is it a must?All the fish are just a few weeks into the tank (some newer)....how large of an impact will the temp raise have iyo?

Are we talking about a degree a day (currently just under 80F)..or is that to slow or fast.

I prefer the natural method (heat).I'm just trying gather and relay as much info as possible before I act.

Thanks for the very quick reply.1000 kudos to you!

[Devilishturtles]

Agreed with rich. Don't bother with meds. They don't work, and some of them irritate your fish.

[Devilishturtles]

Charcoal won't have any effect on the fish. Leave it in or take it out, up to you. Once it has absorbed all that it can, it provides alot of surface area for good bacteria to grow. I say leave it in.

A degree or so every few hours is good.

Good luck!

[SCFatz]

Thanks a lot guys.

Excusing the ich from the question Devil....How would the still working charcoal effect the cycle?I'll gladly leave it,but if the heat is stepped up than
so is the cycle speed and I want to get this right the first time...however challenging.

Ironically...My heater malfuntioned and had the tank about four degrees above setpoint so I took some measures just last night to cool it down a little.lol.some days it sucks to be me.

Thanks again all....keep em coming!

[jcarlilesiu]

Your charcoal in the filter is small black rocks inside the filter media bag which are pourous. They actually help your cycle by giving the bacteria a place to live. Because you arn't treating with meds and using heat (the prefered way) there is no need to remove the charcoal.

As far as ich goes, there is quite a bit of reading you can do online as it pertains to the heat method. Ich goes through a life cycle in which it finds a host fish to live under the scales, at a point it falls off, to the substrate, multiplys and then all the little baby ichs find another host fish to continue the parasites evil nature. That sums it up anyway in a nut shell. The life cycle of the parasite is sped up as the temps speed up, meaning at about 85 degrees, your fish will be covered in ich in no time. At a certain temperature however, ich can't survive and dies off. The trick is, to get the temp up high enough that the ich dies, and quickly enough so that the parasite doesn't spread uncontrollably all over the tank in the processes. It would seem logical then to just raise the temp to 87 as suggested all at once, however this can stress and kill your fish. A degree or so every hour is what I did, but i took my tank up to about the max the heater could keep up with and that was 88 degrees.

Rich suggested adding an airstone, because as the water is heated, its ability to be saturated with oxygen is depleted. meaning with higher temps there is less oxygen in the water. This can also be harmful to your fish for obvious reasons. Rather than buying an airstone and air pump when i treated for ich this way, i just dropped the water level down a little to get a little splash from my filter return to keep the water oxygenated.

Once you see no more signs of ich, keep the heat up for at least another 4-5 days, and then start slowly lowering your temps to the range you maintain.

Good luck, HTH

[Devilishturtles]

Originally Posted by SCFatz

Excusing the ich from the question Devil....How would the still working charcoal effect the cycle?I'll gladly leave it,but if the heat is stepped up than
so is the cycle speed and I want to get this right the first time...however challenging.

Originally Posted by jcarlilesiu

Your charcoal in the filter is small black rocks inside the filter media bag which are pourous. They actually help your cycle by giving the bacteria a place to live. Because you arn't treating with meds and using heat (the prefered way) there is no need to remove the charcoal.

Yep. Fresh, new activated carbon (ie: the charcoal) absorbs inorganic particles from your water. But, after a few days really, it's absorbed all that it can, therefore it stops absorbing. This isn't bad. In a cycling tank, it provides a crazy amount of surface area for good bateria to grow. Good bacteria aren't in your water column, but are rather on all the surfaces in your tank.

HTH

[/quote]

[SCFatz]

Ok guys...just got back from the LPS with a new heater,that actually works I hope.

I mentioned the theory of "Ech:cook em till their dead" to the local fish lady and well..lets just say I could type for the next hour about her instant expession of astonishment,bewilderment and pity.In her opinion...I'm crazier than I am stupid and I'm stupider than hell if I even try it.LOL.

So I've got to wonder whos right.The deer in the headlights looking lady at the LPS..or the fingertips behind the text I read here.

She's sweet though.Nice older lady.She'll be amazed to know it worked.Can't wait to tell her it did.lol.

With that,off on this limb I go.

I'll update as often as possible and thanks for all the help.

78F at the start.

Fatz

Oh...any and all input is welcome at this point...
The water tested at 4ppm amonia this am ...Nitrites,perhaps just past 0 and nitrates 0.
I did a 20% water change while digging pretty hard after those results..but I was anticipating medication.

[Purrbox]

I would recommend doing a larger water change. You really want to keep the Ammonia under 1ppm if at all possible.

[Devilishturtles]

4 ppm is a lot. A whole lot. I'd do more like 50% water changes to get your ammonia in a safe place for the fish (but don't wipe down your glass, clean any ornaments, or vaccum your gravel during this time). 0 ppm is ideal. Even a reading of 1 ppm is considered unsafe, for comparison.

Your theory behind the ich is just slightly off. Its not the heat that is killing the ich, but rather the heat that speeds up their life cycle so quickly, that they don't have time to attach to a host, and THEN they die.

You can tell the lady at the LPS that she can come here to AA and read accounts of probably, literally hundreds of successful heat treatments for ich, including me personally.

Best of luck. Have no doubt in the heat. It will be fine for you.

Btw, how large is the tank you are treating?

[SCFatz]

29gs...and I'm sure I can take the heat,but can the fishes??

Ok....50% change right now,but no cleaning.got it.I should test again when?

[rich311k]

The fish you have will have no problems with the raised temperatures. Check an hour after you finish the water change. You will probably need to do another one, don't wory your fish will enjoy all the fresh water.

[SCFatz]

I.m on it...50 % out now...just checking the tap temp.I'm trying to match the current temp as close as possible even though its going to climb.

Should I be liberal with the "stress zyme" and water conditioners now..or just follow the instructions?

[sherry]

I used a little extra prime.... hwich is good at locking up ammonia and nitrites but honestly the thing that I did that was most important when I had a mini-cycle after changing over tanks was I did really frequent small water changes... 3 gallons on a 35 gallon tank morning then night

I didnt' lose a fish during my ammonia cycle and wouldn't have lost any if I had kept changing when the ammonia problem became a nitrite problem ... When I did jum pin and began the water changes again, I stopped losing fish to nitrites.

it is a pain , but yo have to live with this. dn't vaccum the gravel, just change your water and don't forget to add prime. it takes out chorline nad cholramines and it helps block the ill effects of ammnoia and nitrite.

[SCFatz]

Update:

The tank looks good and the fish seem to be doing well.The ich hasn't moved to any other fish and looks about the same on the one fish effected earlier.

The temp is up to 84.I have the heat turned all the way on high now and I'm starting to wonder if it will make it 87.150 watt in a 29g.

Ammonia is right around or just below 1ppm.This is after one 20% and two 50% changes yesterday.Still 0 nitrites.I'll do another change tonight if recommended or should I wait and hope for some nitrite development?

Am I right in assuming there is no need to test for nitrates until I start to see some nitrites?That seems logical if my understanding of the cycle is correct.

Fatz

[donttaptheglass]

Having been through the Ich during cycle situation just like you, I understand your concern . . . glad to hear things are working out for you. Unfortunately I fell victim to the "need to medicate" method and even though I followed instructions for scaleless fish, I still lost 3 plecos and a kuhli loach to the medication.

Heat was the only way to go and I will swear to it from now on. My betta (the original fish that fell ill to ich) is alive and well and living very happily with all his tankmates now.

As for testing water parameters, I test pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrates EVERY time. I don't leave anything out . . . some will say that you don't have to do some of them, but I do just so I don't miss anything. On that note, it is quite the satisfying feeling the first time you get 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites and you start to see some color in that nitrate test tube . . . .makes you feel like you've really accomplished something.

[SCFatz]

Ok...heres the situation this afternoon.

The tank is still holding at 84.Its nots getting any hotter at this point I have to assume the the heater I have is maxed out.

The one fish that presented with ich looks much better (no spots),but I suspect after reading the article again that its one its way back....(between stages two and three).

I have three options now,but I only have about an hour to act before going to work.

1.Go get another heater that will get me to 87.
2.Medicate...the article does mention that this is the point when the ich is most medicatable.
3.Do nothing and hope its gone.

Thoughts....Help?

[SCFatz]

Just in case someone woke up wondering how ol Fatz and his "ich infested cycling tank" is doing here ya go...(I kid...I know everybody is wondering lol )

I was indeed between steps two and three of the ich cycle and now a few more fish have the ich.Not as bad as the first (which wasn't that bad actually),but its there.

My first heater topped out at 84.My attempt to buy another one before work last night ended in udder failure....But wally world came through this am and I bought a 200w.Got em both going now and I hope it will get me there.The tank was at a disappointing 82 when I came in the am because the house cooled off considerably before the heat was turned on...5 to go it seems.

Anyone know for sure about this:

Am I right in assuming there is no need to test for nitrates until I start to see some nitrites?That seems logical if my understanding of the cycle is correct.

I would hate to waste the solutions if I'm right.

Fatz



The fish look outstanding though,both the neons and the gups look better then the day I bought em and everyone seems quite fine.

How much worse will it get before it gets better I wonder?

[SCFatz]

The good news is the heater got me to to 87.

The bad news is I lost a platy.He was looking kinda funny for the last few days,but I was hoping...

So I'll be ich free soon.The fish look good.The only evidence of ich I see is on the dalmation mollys tail and one spot on one neon.Thanks to all for the advice.

If someone could answer the nitrite/nitrate question that would be great.It will either reinforce my understanding of the cycle or put me back on the learning curve.Either is good for me and the fish I suppose.

On to the fish question.

The Black Molly..(brilliantly black...very nice fish) has me concerned.
Its one of the larger fish in the tank(don't go by the list posted earlier as it was a list generated for stock and potential space) at about 2 inches.A hearty 2 inches or slightly longer perhaps...

The problem is feeding time.All is good when the food is put in...but as its eaten and less of it is there,this guy gets mean.He chases and chases the smaller fish.Quick fast bursts of speed...very agressive.

I told my wife that if the behavior persists,I'll take him back to the pet store because all the other fish are much more passive...feeding time or not.

Is this unusual for a molly?Should I wait or take him back asap?

The guy feels like he owns the top of the tank near the end of and after feeding time,otherwise he's fine.As I type this he's swimming with the dalmation molly at the bottom of the tank and seems to love it.
Its not a territory thing..just a food thing.

Thoughts?

Thanks again,
Fatz